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To: Romulus
John 20:21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Me: Where does it say that they had the authority to transfer the authority to forgive sin?

You: John 20:21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.

Me: The Father sent Jesus as God made man on earth. Jesus sent the disciples, as men, filled with God's power. The Father sent Jesus to die, to pay the price for all sin, once and for all time. Jesus sent the disciples... to spread the word. So, Jesus sent the disciples, in some way or ways, as the Father sent Jesus, but not in every way. They weren't 11/12/13 little Jesuses. So, I don't see the theological proof that the way Jesus sent them included the authority to transfer the authority to forgive sin. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but this verse doesn't say.

You: No. You actually have to read two whole verses along to see where Jesus did this, as part of the very same discourse.


Right. Read that, but do not see that.

Now FactQuest -- When you utter three successive sentences, would you like me to assume that the first and the third have nothing to do with each other?

Of course not. Nor have I done that.

Shall I impute to you the same incoherence that you impute to our Lord?

Please. It is a simple logical construct. "As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.... If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven...." How big is the circle you draw around the phrase "as the Father has sent me? Well, what are the extremes? The narrowest interpretation is that it only applies to the context - it is limited to the 11/12 apostles having power to forgive sin. The widest interpretation is that the apostles were thereby elevated to being a part of God - no longer a triune God, but now a God in 15 persons. I think we both find that last extreme more than a little blasphemous.

Since expanding the circle too far ends in blasphemy, is there any reason to expand the interpretation beyond the narrowest? I see none. There may be, and that is why I ask. You claim that they also were given the authority to transfer that power to forgive sins. I ask "why?" If there is a scriptural reason, I'd love to hear it. If there are early church documents that show that they did this, please point me in their direction (something specific is preferred here, like the name of a manuscript).

For that matter, did they have the power to forgive all sin for all time? If so, why didn't they go ahead and just forgive everyone in the world, past, present and future, for every sin, and then we'd all go to heaven? Could it be, that there were also some implied limits on the sins they could forgive?
85 posted on 05/04/2004 12:25:33 PM PDT by FactQuest
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To: FactQuest
If there is a scriptural reason, I'd love to hear it.

You're not able to hear it. Or not willing, anyway. People have been telling you for a week.

Are you aware that the Greek word "apostolos" means one who is sent?

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things?

87 posted on 05/04/2004 12:46:50 PM PDT by Romulus ("Behold, I make all things new")
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