[Gamecock]

if a thread is posted, for example, for Calvinists to discuss, largely among themselves, the nuances of total depravity, and someone from another faith tradition comes along to poke fun or worse - and is asked politely to desist by those there for serious discussion - then that person should do as requested. On the other hand, if someone comes along with the obvious intent to learn, he or she should be warmly welcomed. 617 posted on 01/24/2004 8:38:01 AM CST by Sidebar Moderator

[Gamecock]

GRPL Ping

[Gamecock]

I don't know how prevalent "Showtime" religion is, but I do see it on display on any given night on the "Christian" channels.

Joel Osteen(sp?) comes to mind. Very little Gospel is preached on his show. I do see tons of wealth and happiness preached.

[11th Earl of Mar]

If the pendulum has swung too far in the in the direction of pop culture, one could argue that it is because for too many years the church was full of people who sang 400 year old songs, read the Bible in 1600's King's English and who prohibited any display of emotion in church.

Needless to say, there are still a ton of churches that still abide by these same man-made rules today.

[Diamond]

I happen to be the sound manager/"producer" for a PCA church, a job which has been a tremendous blessing in my life and for the life of my family. We do have a 42 channel sound board. We have lighting. We do on occasion have some drama. We have unbelievable musical talent (all on loan from God, I might add.) I don't have to worry about the sin of a rising stage, because we don't have one. But my job is to make sure that the stuff we do have is as transparent as possible so that the Word of God might be heard and glorified.

We also have thoroughly Biblical, Calvinistic preaching from the pulpit, so I don't think all this technology is necessarily inimical to Calvinism, and I don't view what we do as entertainment; I view my work as part of worship of the Living God.

Cordially,

[Wallace T.]

There is no way that the church can outdo secular entertainment given the latter's financial resources and greater talent pool. So-called Christian rock, heavy metal, and country are generally imitations of the secular genres, and not good ones at that (or so I have been told). Movies based on the "Left Behind" series seem like low grade knockoffs of better crafted secular "end of the world" movies like "Independence Day." Why would a consumer (other than an already converted Christian) spend his money on the lesser quality "Christian" product, when he can listen to or watch the better quality secular one? If the purpose of "Christian" movies and music is to spread the Gospel message among the unsaved, it will not succeed.

About nine years ago, in the suburb of Dallas where I live, the largest evangelical church in the community sponsored a group of weight lifters and stuntmen called "The Power Team," who would break cement blocks and tear apart phone books while saying Bible verses or warning against drugs. After the presentation, there was an altar call, with dozens of children, teenagers, and adults responding, and many later being baptized. However, after a few months, almost none of the converts were on the rolls of church members.

Even if non-Calvinists are unconvinced, based on their interpretation of Scripture, of the inability of man to persuade the unbeliever when the Holy Spirit has not done so, the lessons of experience should teach them that conforming to the styles and fads of the mainstream culture has been a failure.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

if a thread is posted, for example, for Calvinists to discuss, largely among themselves, the nuances of total depravity, and someone from another faith tradition comes along to poke fun or worse - and is asked politely to desist by those there for serious discussion - then that person should do as requested. On the other hand, if someone comes along with the obvious intent to learn, he or she should be warmly welcomed. 617 posted on 01/24/2004 8:38:01 AM CST by Sidebar Moderator

With all due respect, i personally do not believe that this is exclusively a Calvinist, or Reformed issue. i don't even believe that this particular issue is exclusive to Protestants. We have seen many of the same kind of complaints on Roman Catholic threads. Perhaps this should be opened up a little bit. i do believe that there is no need for argumentation here between different faiths, although the issue itself does merit "vigorous discussion".

[A.J.Armitage]

Why not have a real carnival? A tattooed knife thrower who juggles chain saws could do his thing while a barker shouts Bible verses.

Somewhere, someone who just read that is calling around to find a knifethrowing chainsaw juggler.

[HarleyD]

I find ALL of your articles VERY interesting. Keep posting regardless of what others may say.

[Frapster]

It is my closely held opinion that in God's economy there is no middle ground between staunch traditionalism and emergence of our entertainment based churches. To be clear - neither is right and neither is wrong. The issues is always about God's way and he uses both as they make themselves available.

[Eala]

Moreover, this whole Madison-Avenue corruption of Christianity

I wince whenever I hear an ad from some local church that tries to lure first-time visitors with "a free expresso from the coffee bar."

[Sloth]

As the Ray Stevens song asks, would Jesus wear a Rolex on His television show?

[megatherium]

Lately, I have been attending one of the ten largest churches in the US (Southeast Christian Church, Louisville, Kentucky, which has 18,000 members). They have all of the sound and lighting technology mentioned in the article; the worship music is accurately described as soft rock (complete with electric guitar solos). Their sermons are entertaining, leavened by humor and reinforced by video clips, and they often stage impressive dramatic productions.

But I cannot detect any watering down of their teachings: sermons contain regular pro-life and pro-family messages, and Biblical inerrancy is firmly adhered to. (Southeast is a Church of Christ but also calls itself a non-denominational evanglical church.)

Also, once you leave the sanctuary (which seats nine thousand) you have your choice of 55 different Bible study groups, which function as churches within the church. Churches can grow because they entertain people or appeal to their vanity, or they can grow because they have excellent leadership and are, well, really really good at being Christian churches.

I haven't yet decided to become a member, but I am leaning towards doing so.

[FactQuest]

Nice article.

My church is fundamentalist Baptist. About 5000 attend on a Sunday morning. We have a large choir, an orchestra, lots of music, an excellent sound system, video projections to two big screens on both corner of front, lighting, what amounts to a stage, etc. etc.

Our music is a mixture of old hymns and contemporary stuff.

Our pastor preaches at least 30 minutes, if not closer to an hour. He is well organized, preaches from the inerrant Word, and doesn't sugar coat it in the least.

It is worship, and all the flash hasn't watered down the Word in the least.

Being Baptist, every sermon is followed by an altar call. Decisions are made for Christ every week. Every Sunday night we baptize more new believers.

I think McArthur has nailed a lot of what is wrong in American churches today, but one must be careful to not judge a book by its cover.

[pudd]

extremeism is a favorite tool of those who cant't come up with a legitimate argument.
I have been a secular musician for over twenty years and have been a christian for 12 years.
I have found that playing evangelical music in the bars may not convert a lot of the bar flies but it does stimulate spiritual conversation in a place where god isnt given a second thought.
Jesus used more than one method of getting the word out,
with healing walking on water turning water to wine;
these things all got peoples attention and if jesus had an electric guitar he probably would have used that to.
Jesus didn't come to heal the healthy but the sick.
we must use whatever tools god gives us to spread the gospel
because our father can do anything he wants.
I'm sure he has a strategy to get around those in the church who think ultra conservatively.
Billy Graham endorsed all kinds of musical acts to spread the word. Even rap.In my opinion Billy Graham is the most decent representative of Christianity in recent times.
I would rather see a rock band teach my kids about jesus than sex and drugs.
enough of the prejiduce already