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To: thor76

I will believe you if you assert there is such a thing as "interparish finance" in the New York (arch)diocese, but it is even only within the diocese itself, and not in the Rockville Center diocese, which falls under the NY archdiocese. What you describe may be a fairly unique circumstance, given the very drastic wealth discrepancies in NYC, and the fact that parishes in NYC cover such tiny geographic areas. (Manhattan has a population density four times any city or county outside New York in America.)

As for the diocese taking "the parish's" money, you talk like a Calvinist! Once that money is put in the collection basket, it is the diocese's. Parishes are not separate little corporations. Like any large organization, each division has its own budget and its own accounts and its own responsibilities, but the whole diocese is all, ultimately, one source.

So, yes, there's a building commission. And there should be. The diocese has every right to make sure its not going to have to bail out a parish which could not afford to pay the debts in incurs when it begins to build.

Your a bit of an expert on your parish's finances are you? Take a look at a diocesan budget. See where the money goes. Here in the Arlington diocese, the vast majority goes to... building new churches! Go find out who footed the bill for your parish's original church. Here's a hint: mission parishes don't have any capital.

If any priest is stealing money from his church, that is an obvous horrible scandal. But should a diocese be forced to redistribute monies among its branches er, parishes, that's not stealing.


56 posted on 07/21/2004 12:20:05 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus; HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
I will believe you if you assert there is such a thing as "inter-parish finance"
Now that I have finished laughing hysterically, why would you imply that I would make something like this up? If you think I did, then call them up and ask them if they are fake.
IPF was the creation of then Cardinal Spellman some 50 years ago. At that time, due to one of the first waves of white flight from the inner cities, some formerly prosperous parishes were now having revenue problems. The initial concept - to take from the rich parishes and give to the poorer ones was good - in theory. What it has developed into is another matter.
How were the parish churches here funded? In the 19th century, if a new parish was carved out of an older one, sometimes "seed money" was given by the "mother" parish. Sometimes the Archbishop would give a similar "seed" gift. Most of the rest of the funds were raised literally from the pennies of the poor (and a few wealthy benefactors). There were times when a pastor had to borrow money from a bank - usually the Emigrant Savings bank, which was partially founded by Archbishop John Hughes for this purpose, and to assist new immigrants. So churches of that era might have had a small mortgage. When it was paid off, and the church was debt free, the building was formerly consecrated - a moment of great joy for the parish! Due to the sheer numbers of contributors, and their eagerness to see such a goal be a reality, most building mortgages were paid off quickly. Please note that Hughes & his immediate successors GAVE money to start off new parishes - they did not lend at interest!
It was Spellman who got the diocese into the usury business. He instigated a vast building campaign. A pastor who built a building got to be a monsignor automatically! Usually this was done by saddling the parish with a large debt to the chancery office. Some of those debts from the post war era have never been paid off, as the population base quickly fled in the turmoil of the 60s and 70s. This leaves today's fractional size congregations with monstrous debt payments - which by all right should be forgiven by the bishop. They simply make no sense. If a bishop raises capital for a building campaign, he should not be lending it at interest!
It also must be clearly understood that Spellman raised money for his building campaign not merely from a normal appeal, nor just from wealthy benefactors. He literally strong-armed the money out of the pastors! He would go to a pastor and virtually demand the surplus savings of the parish (raised by the people for THAT parish), and commandeered it for his building program. Usually it took the form of a "loan" to the diocese.
In one case I know of, the pastor of one parish, hoping to curry favor with Spellman, loaned him $500,000 - a huge sum in the late 50's! Some 15 years later the next pastor, inherited a very poor parish, with very few people, went to the chancery office with a copy of Spellman's letter, acknowledging the loan. He had many bills & repairs to take care of and desperately needed the money. The chancery basically told him to go booty poke himself! the parish never got the money back! So much for diocesan ethics!
Which brings me to a point of law. According to the Religious Corporation Law of the State of NY, each Roman Catholic Parish is a corporation. It is run by a five man board of trustees: President - the Archbishop of NY; Vice President - Vicar General; Secretary - Pastor; and two lay trustees nominated by the pastor and approved by the archbishop. They are independent corporations under law. Diocesan control under civil law is effected through an interlocking directorate. All parish real property is deeded to the Archdiocese of NY. The parish monies remain in the treasury of the parish corporation, and are the property of the parish.
Now as to canon law, and Vatican directives, neither the local pastor, nor the bishop "own" the property or the fiscal assets. These belong to the church - they hold it as the patrimony of the church in a fiduciary responsibility.
But the money, real property etc., is truly the patrimony of the people of the parish. According to a much ignored Vatican directive, every parish is to have a finance committee, to oversee the finances of the parish. This is NOT a parish council. this committee is to have real power in decision making regarding the assets and fiscal management of the parish. It is to protect the people's interests, and to assist (and protect) the pastor by a sharing of responsibility. A similar set up is to exist at the diocesan level - with open accounting.......which you will never see!
The point of this is that parishes are in fact independant corporations. There is diocesan control & supervision. But the patrimony of the church belongs to the people - it is "held in trust for" by the clergy.
As to the building commission - I should point out that they stick their fingers into every little repair which is made. As per the policies I outlined in my previous post, there is no moral justification for such practices.
Diocesan finances? At least locally, I would call it a black hole for money. Far too much is wasted on left-wing and other dubious agendas. Like....er.....clergy salaries!
59 posted on 07/21/2004 4:12:14 PM PDT by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux!)
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