Posted on 07/22/2004 11:27:00 AM PDT by dangus
Incidentally, I read in a book (not an apologetic on this subject) where the city of Alphaeus was also known, in Pre-Christian times, as "Clopas." I left that out since I can't source it. But it does suggest that perhaps the evangelists simply associated the two names, considering "Alphaeus" a translation of "Clopas." Anyone know enough Hebrew or Greek to translate either one of those words?
>>During that period of history was the use the words brother and sister also used for friends and acquaintances? It is similar to some members of our society who use the word bro or brother or in the religious sense, brothers and sisters.<<
Very plainly, the word "brother" was used among first-generation Christians to signify that they were all sons of the same Father. For this reason, I didn't address the fact that the author of the epistle of James calls himself the "brother of Christ:" Paul does the same. But to bring that up is to fall into a fault I often find among Protestant apologists: to focus so tightly on the apologetic meaning of the words, that the sense of what the words meant to the characters is lost. Quite apparently, the crowds are asking whether Jesus is the brother of James and the bunch because they are asserting that they knew him as a child, that is, that he did not descend from Heaven. As such, they are asserting a physical relation, not merely a closeness.
I know you meant was that done immediately BEFORE Christ, where as I address the use immediately AFTER Christ. I don't know, and if I did, I'm sure it would be as hotly debated as whether "cousins" refers to "brothers." But I hope I've made my point in aswering.
>>While I understand the desire for Roman Catholic's to prove that Jesus had no biological brothers, I have never got to excited about it. I mean that it isn't something which salvation is hanging on.<<
No, but Protestant apologists keep bringing it up. And a model of perpetual virginity is very important to the Catholic priesthood.
It certainy strikes newspaper editors as important. Can anyone explain to me why an unconfirmed claim about an ossuary was scrawled all the way across every national newpaper of record? I couldn't believe when the scratches proved to be recent. That was the first thing I'd've looked for!
There is a division between Catholics and Greeks on the issue of Jesus' siblings. Greeks assert that the gospel's Greek language is perfect, and therefore assert both that Mary had no children ("THE son of you,") but that Jesus had brothers. Hence, they suppose Joseph had sons by a previous wife. This does fit ancient legends concerning the marriage of Joseph and Mary. (Legend is Joseph was an old man who was ashamed to take practically a mere child -- 13 years old! -- for his wife. Imagine his horror when every-one would've thought he couldn't even wait until their marriage to have relations with her! They must've thought he was a horny old lech!)
While the Catholic Church does not formally denounce this, Joseph is considered by Catholics and in Catholic prayers to be also "ever-virgin."
But you may wish to consider:
A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You." Answering them, He said, "Who are My mother and My brothers?" Looking about at those who were sitting around Him, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother." Mark 3:32-35
If brothers are cousins what are "sisters"?
St. James is titled "Brother of the Lord" in Orthodox hymnography because alone among Jesus' juridical half-brothers he was willing to share the inheritance from Joseph with Jesus. He also accompanied the Holy Family into exile in Egypt: Orthodox icons of the flight into Egypt show the aged Joseph, the young Virgin Mary carrying the Christ Child, and a youth--St. James.
That Jesus' brothers were not children of the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary is testified to by Christ's entrusting of Mary to the care of St. John: it would have contravened Jewish law and custom to do so had she had other children.
What does the original Greek say?
Since Mary was legally their mother, wouldn't Jesus, by Jewish tradition, entrust her to these siblings, and not to the beloved Apostle John?
Harley, come on... you're pulling a sleight of hand.
But unlike in English, "cousin" can take on a feminine form. So your answer is that "sister" is "adelpha." But you'll notice I did address the condition problemmatic for the Catholic argument that it is unusual for "adelphae" and "adelphi*" to be addressed separately in the same sentence. Were it not for this peculiarity, there would never be any evidence at all that James et al referred to Jesus' brothers and not his cousins. Since there is this peculiarity, it was needed to create an argument to demonstrate that James was in fact a cousin, and not a brother.
(* As I am presently away from my resources, I'm not positive if that is the correct plural of "adelphos.")
Salome is St. Joseph's previous wife!??? Surely, this is not the same Salome who witnesses the resurrection? I presumed the Orthodox would believe St. Joseph to be a widower, not a divorcee!
(And I state that rhetorically, for I am sure you will dispel my false presumption, will you not?)
Wanna ping the horde?
By the way, I saw on another thread, by bizarre coincidence the assertion that Mary of Clopas was not a sister-in-law, but in fact a sister! The discussion was about Mary Magdeleine, and the assertion was made that Mary Magdeliene was sister to Mary, Martha and Lazarus of Bethany. The author asserted that there had been Jewish prophecies shortly before Christ that the Messiah was about to be born to a woman named Mary. As a result, it was not unheard of for believers in this prophecy to name each daughter Mary. This wouldn't affect my theory at all. The bigger problem is that it's hard to picture St. Anne having other children, given the Catholic legends surrounding her.
In the Protoevanglian St. Anne and St. Joachim had other children, atleast one daughter, back in their younger days. IIRC.
Nah! I personally don't think its worth getting our theological dandruff up over except it is interesting to speculate. To me it does not distract from the humility or honor of Mary whether she had other children or not. I was just yanking some chains. :O)
I saw that about the name of Mary too. I always wondered why everyone was always named Mary, John or James in the New Testament. I though it was because of the monogrammed coffee mugs sold at the temple or because it was easier to spell the Zerubabal.
In spite of her very advanced age? O well, after I wrote it I realized that Sarah had other children after Isaac, too.
Mat 1:2 Abraham begot Isaac. And Isaac begot Jacob. And Jacob begot Judas and his brethren. (DRV)
compared to:
Mat 1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. (NASB)
In the first context it would make no sense that Judah begat his cousins.
The verse I quoted from Mark is interesting in that the word sister (Greek: adelphe) is included in the text and is the feminine version of "brother" or "brethren". If our Lord Jesus was referring to "cousins" (or "brethren") there is no feminine side to that. Our Lord Jesus also contrasts the two by saying:
Mar 3:35 "For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother."
I can only conclude the reference here should be accurately translated "brothers".
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