Rick Warren graduated from this guy's school.
Posted on 07/26/2004 1:57:27 PM PDT by Lasher
Rick Warren graduated from this guy's school.
I should have said I would not give up time in His Word to read a man-centered view of God's Word. When you take a good, solid look at Warren's purpose, it is indeed man-centered. Read these paragraphs of about 9 in his introduction while Keeping 1 John 4:1-6 in mind, (testing the spirits to see if they are from God if their purpose is to drive home the point that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, once and for all - for our salvation and sanctification). Just for your own notations, jot down how many times the following words, or ideas are expressed and again, compare to the 1 John passage: Lord, Jesus, Christ, repent, blood, me, I, you, your, my, etc. Then look for sentences where it points talks about your reliance/trust on the finished work of the Cross, who reveals His Truth, or on your own efforts, or Warren's. Remember that the introduction of a book is introducing people to the main ideas that the book is all about. Then, again, read 1 John 4:1-6.
This is more than a book; it is a guide to a 40-day spiritual journey that will enable you to discover the answer to life’s most important question: What on earth am I here for? By the end of this journey you will know God’s purpose for your life and will understand the big picture—how all the pieces of your life fit together. Having this perspective will reduce your stress, simplify your decisions, increase your satisfaction, and, most important, prepare you for eternity.
Today the average life span is 25,550 days. That’s how long you will live if you are typical. Don’t you think it would be a wise use of time to set aside 40 of those days to figure out what God wants you to do with the rest of them?
One reason most books don’t transform us is that we are so eager to read the next chapter, we don’t pause and take the time to seriously consider what we have just read. We rush to the next truth without reflecting on what we have learned.
Don’t just read this book. Interact with it. Underline it. Write your own thoughts in the margins. Make it your book. Personalize it! The books that have helped me most are the ones that I reacted to, not just read.
As I wrote this book, I often prayed that you would experience the incredible sense of hope, energy, and joy that comes from discovering what God put you on this planet to do. There’s nothing quite like it. I am excited because I know all the great things that are going to happen to you. They happened to me, and I have never been the same since I discovered the purpose of my life.
Because I know the benefits, I want to challenge you to stick with this spiritual journey for the next 40 days, not missing a single daily reading. Your life is worth taking the time to think about it. Make it a daily appointment on your schedule. If you will commit to this, let’s sign a covenant together. There is something significant about signing your name to a commitment. If you get a partner to read through this with you, have him or her sign it, too. Let’s get started together!
If you analyze these paragraphs, it becomes very clear that it is a man-centered book of works, directing you to rely on his book (and other materials that you can purchase) rather than just simply resting in the Lord Jesus. Be wary of such burdens people want to market to you. Prayerfully ponder this passage for His Book:
The Preacher sought to find delightful words and to write words of truth correctly. The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd. But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body. The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
And the truly great Christian authors point people their need for the Lord God in all aspects of their lives, not the need for their books, their sermons, their tapes, etc.
The title itself should cause us to wonder a little. Throughout all of scripture, God's people are being referred to as sheep. HE is the Great Shepherd and He talks about false shepherds. Sheep are a flocking animal. They are herded animals which are driven, but they follow. Jesus said, "Follow Me" a total of 17 times in scripture. I can't think of one time where He said He will drive, herd, push us to good works. Our lives aren't supposed to be "purpose" driven. Instead, we are to Follow Him because we love Him and want to be transformed by Him. There is a big difference. One leads to true peace with the Almighty God - through the blood of Christ Jesus, the other leads to works of our own or other taskmasters which lead to frustration and false hope and are wearisome (Ecclesiastes 12).
This book is awesome. I did not subscribe to the whole 40 days theory, as our church was not involved in it, however my wife and I were reading partners in the book and both thought it to be worthy reading, acceptable to this young seminary student.
This book is awesome. I did not subscribe to the whole 40 days theory, as our church was not involved in it, however my wife and I were reading partners in the book and both thought it to be worthy reading, acceptable to this young seminary student.
Thats not my point - you made a statement and now you seem to be qualifying it - thats ok -
You make the statement that I see no Good reason to give up time spent in His word to read someone else's view of it.
and then tell me to pray on it ........LOL
Paul Proctor
October 3, 2002
NewsWithViews.com
The latest in a growing list of Baptist Press articles spotlighting Rick Warren is one by Erin Curry promoting the pastor's latest book entitled, ‘The Purpose Driven Life’ - obviously a sequel to ‘The Purpose Driven Church’. My intention here is not to review Warren’s new release but rather address a poignant statement Curry attributes to Saddleback’s founder regarding the goal of the book.
In his September 25th article, Curry wrote the following:
"Warren says the goal of The Purpose Driven Life is to help people develop a heart for the world."
What makes focusing on this particular comment so important is that it reveals the humanist philosophy and psychological manipulation that fuels today’s church growth movement. (CGM) First of all, the bible does not teach that we are to develop anything spiritual in and of ourselves -- especially "a heart for the world". Instead, we are to simply yield to God and His Word -- that is, "let go and let God", as the saying goes. For me to develop something implies that I am in control and affecting my own change. It denotes a psychological transformation that occurs through personal experience, trial and error, human interaction and the praxis (or practice) of Hegel’s dialectic, otherwise known as the Hegelian Dialectic or "Diaprax". Spiritual attributes are not developed like muscles on men but are given like gifts from God. You either have them or you don’t. They are not designed and "developed" over time through human initiative and experimentation. And although the term "developing a heart" is merely creeker-speak for "learning to love", notice if you will, that Warren doesn’t encourage us to develop "a heart for the lost", but rather "a heart for the world". Those who believe the Word of God know that loving the world is exactly what Christians are commanded NOT to do.
"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world" -- 1st John 2:15-17
When we focus our affection on a dying world instead of the Living Word, we ourselves become susceptible to its power and influence and over the course of time are seduced by it into compromising our own convictions until we tolerate, then accommodate, then approve, then imitate, then embrace and finally love the very world we were saved FROM. By deception, attrition, peer-pressure and self-gratification we fall prey to sheepish-looking wolves roaming the herd, twisting the truth of scripture into ear-itching lies that transform gullible "seekers" into global serfs instead of godly servants. These charlatans can’t just come right out and tell us to "love the world" because far too many would then recognize their heresy. So, they cloak the lie in fluffy CGM psycho-lingo to avoid setting off any discernment alarms and instruct us instead to "develop a heart for the world".
That’s why at seeker-sensitive, promise-keeping, purpose-driven, churches you’ll always find plenty of Jungian psychology, charismatic clichés, sensual music, tempting dress, irreverent behavior, boisterous applause, celebrity worship, biblical ignorance and smiley-faced pride because everyone there is busy living out the purpose driven lie "developing a heart for the world".
"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." -- James 4:4
© 2002 Paul Proctor - All Rights Reserved
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Proctor, a rural resident of the Volunteer state and seasoned veteran of the country music industry, retired from showbiz in the late 1990's to dedicate himself to addressing important social issues from a distinctly biblical perspective. As a freelance writer and regular columnist for News With Views, he extols the wisdom and truths of scripture through commentary and insight on cultural trends and current events. His articles appear regularly on a variety of news and opinion sites across the internet and in print. Paul may be reached at watchman@usa.com.
This book has refocused the lives of many on the truth of God's Word, despite the many deceptions of our modern age which say otherwise. Therefore, it like so much out there today which is directing people back to the Holy Bible for guidance and meaning for their lives ---- is a gift from God to a deceived populace. We should rejoice in this gift.
Soon, the fires of persecution will be blasting full bore in this country and will make quick work of all who have built our houses upon sand instead of upon the solid rock of Jesus Christ the Living Word and the Written Word which so clearly reveals Him.
Is this the attitude which you received from the book? This is very sad! You bash your Christian brother or sister because they disagree with you!
When do you think the miraculous change will come to our world because of this book? And will the change be so that any of the Christians that don't follow this author or book are hated? Will people that love the bible, seek truth from the bible and sing old songs become evil in the eyes of the new followers? MCD
when they get near a church and brush up against prissy old maid school marm mentalities, attitudes, demeanors, manners, stances, policies, cliquishness and the like
Perhaps you haven't been in America long?
Perhaps you haven't been in many churches?
Are you serious?
Can you stand before God and insist you haven't seen perhaps even the vast majority of churches plagued with such demonstrations of unChrist-like behaviors, stances, policies, attitudes, SOP (Standard Operating Procedures), habits, customs, even pharisee-prissy doctrines????? Can you really look God in the eye and even pretend you haven't seen such as an epidemic plague on American churches?
You bash your Christian brother or sister because they disagree with you!
Not at all. I am somewhat stridently trying to declare the truth about the state of Christianity in American churches amidst all kinds of Warren bashing.
When do you think the miraculous change will come to our world because of this book? And will the change be so that any of the Christians that don't follow this author or book are hated? Will people that love the bible, seek truth from the bible and sing old songs become evil in the eyes of the new followers? MCD
Saaaayyyyyyy WHUT????
Perhaps you weren't quite awake when you wrote that. Perhaps acid reflux disease tweaked your sense of reason and accuracy. Perhaps your insecurities smacked your fingers while typing that.
What a bunch of nonsense!
First you folks accuse Warren et all of being tooooo ooooooey goooooey mindlessly milque toasty and loving to be preaching
And then you accuse Warren type folks and sympathesizers of generating hate against the TRULY TRUE AND HONESTLY TRUEST TRULY TRUE TRUTH SQUAD WHO:
--!!!!!!REALLLLLYYYYY!!!!!! LOVE THE BIBLE [vs the dastardly Warren folks who probably dare to have a Bible covered in something besides black leather and probably--horror of horrors probably read a version other than KJV, like maybe the NIV or THE MESSAGE or the NEW LIVING TRANSLATION]
--AND FOLKS WHO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!REALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SEEK TRUTH (IN ALL THE DOCTRINES OF MEN WAYS THEY CAN FIND; ALL THE TRADITIONS OF MEN WAYS THEY CAN FIND; USING ALL THE ARCHAIC METAPHORS THEY CAN IDOLIZE; LIMITED STRICTLY TO ****THEIR SPECIAL AND SPECIFIC MT SINAI PERSONAL CONSTRUCTION ON REALITY****) [as opposed to those hideous Warren folks who are so outrageously successful at getting chapters of the Bible after Chapters of the Bible worked into the lives of folks who would normally have better sense than to step inside an uncharatible, prissy, starchy, cold and prickly church--perhaps like yours] . . .
--FOLKS WHO ARE SO ADDICTED TO THE [truly wonderful and revered] OLD HYMNS THAT THEY COULDN'T DREAM OF USING *ANY* MUSIC THAT MIGHT BE ATTRACTIVE TO A DIFFERENT GENERATION.
Sigh.
I'm not sure where to go to find a common language. It appears that your experience of American Christianity is either so thinly and rigidly narrow or otherwise so different from mine, that we could functionally be in different universes and at least on different planets.
But I could easily add up dozens if not hundreds of people I've known who have whole sale RAN FROM any hint of anyone introducing God to them BECAUSE OF PRECISELY THE SORTS OF CHURCHES AND CHURCH LIFE AND CHURCH EXPERIENCES YOU SEEM TO IDOLIZE SO MUCH--and who therefore will likely never enter Heaven because of a dogged determination to run Christianity and churches in ways wholesale akin to and wholesale in the values basket of first century pharisees.
And there are many more hundreds of people who used to be believers, earnestly doing their best to walk the talk and grow closer to God--who were so MANGLED AND SHREDDED by churches of the ilk you set on such a mind boggling pedestal--that they have sworn off religion and most have sworn off God so much it will be a miracle of God's grace if they make Heaven at all. And certainly their kids are at great risk for losing out on God entirely, too.
If you want to stand before God and try and even look up toward His face about such horse manure--much less look HIM in the eye and defend it,
be my guest.
I think you will be in for a very severe shock.
Oh, and
YES!
I'M A STRONG believer in sometimes finding the most charitable 2 X 4 I can find to wake a brother up.
Seems to me a rather Christ-following thing to do if I recall HIS manner and tone with the super starchy, super rigid, super narrow, super self-righteous, super traditional religious rulers of His dusty pathed days.
Sigh.
Well, I've got to get back to casting stumbling blocks before my neighbors and driving people out of churches. It's hard work, but somebody's got to do it!
Perhaps the sequencing and logic of the exchanges got lost to you, somehow.
Understandable.
My message wasn't meant to be that comfortable anyway.
Has long seemed like God has been quite intent that I comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable as part of my destiny.
BTW, I doubt my wording accused you particularly personally. I accuse the mentalities described and a vast host of churches.
Certainly it APPEARS to me and sounds like many on this thread would be in the ranks of such churches.
However, I don't know
A) whether they'd be complicit in such behaviors or not
or
B) how much they'd have doctrinal, emotional, psychological, relational etc. sympathies with such mentalities while somehow managing to behave more Christ-like.
But the warning is still a worthy one. The mentalities expressed and a vast number of the churches demonstrating such mentalities and standard stances and practices are a hideous charade of Christianity. And they doom countless SEEKERS and lifelong Christians to hell weekly.
It's absolutely mind boggling to me that anyone would imagine to defend such a aberation of Christianity. To do so as though and insisting that the charade is THE MORE LOFTY, MORE RIGHTEOUS form of Christianity is beyond off the wall, to me.
Leaves me thinking that
A) all the references Christ made in the Gospels to the religious rulers of His dusty pathed days have been
'REDACTED' from their Bibles
or
B) there's some kind of mysterious brain fade going on where people read the words and they can't imagine the least bit of an application to them and their church/RELIGIOUS contexts.
Sad. Enormously sad.
THANKFULLY, Brother Warren is doing something active and constructive about such a sorry expression of church-based Christianity.
All of my life!
Perhaps you haven't been in many churches?
To many!
Can you stand before God and insist you haven't seen perhaps even the vast majority of churches plagued with such demonstrations of unChrist-like behaviors, stances, policies, attitudes, SOP (Standard Operating Procedures), habits, customs, even pharisee-prissy doctrines????? Can you really look God in the eye and even pretend you haven't seen such as an epidemic plague on American churches?
Yes, I have seen many problems in churches. Now I see love and tolerance being the thing. That is as long as you agree with every aspect of what is being said. Same as the world isn't it?
Those that preach tolerance are the least tolerant of anyone else's view. Those that yell hate-mongers are filled with vast hatred!
Another major problem I see in the churches is that it is all about business. Not about fellowship and worshipping! Not about learning about the word of God! Sometimes I feel that it all a social club and has nothing to do with The Lord at all!
--!!!!!!REALLLLLYYYYY!!!!!! LOVE THE BIBLE [vs the dastardly Warren folks who probably dare to have a Bible covered in something besides black leather and probably--horror of horrors probably read a version other than KJV, like maybe the NIV or THE MESSAGE or the NEW LIVING TRANSLATION]
More Christian love from you!
I don't care what someone reads! If they have a book as I had with all four versions side by side there are some verses that have been so drastically changed that it did not even have the same meaning.
If they want to read a bible that is gender sensitive that's fine. Just don't cram it down my throat and tell me it is the word of God!
And regardless of what you say, others are still entitled to their opinion!!!
For those that seek truth will find it! For not one of His will be lost!
--FOLKS WHO ARE SO ADDICTED TO THE [truly wonderful and revered] OLD HYMNS THAT THEY COULDN'T DREAM OF USING *ANY* MUSIC THAT MIGHT BE ATTRACTIVE TO A DIFFERENT GENERATION.
So the appropriate Christian love is to run them out of the church? Instead of having two different services? Attempting to accommodate both!
But I could easily add up dozens if not hundreds of people I've known who have whole sale RAN FROM any hint of anyone introducing God to them BECAUSE OF PRECISELY THE SORTS OF CHURCHES AND CHURCH LIFE AND CHURCH EXPERIENCES YOU SEEM TO IDOLIZE SO MUCH--and who therefore will likely never enter Heaven ....
And there are many more hundreds of people who used to be believers, earnestly doing their best to walk the talk and grow closer to God--who were so MANGLED AND SHREDDED by churches of the ilk you set on such a mind boggling pedestal--that they have sworn off religion and most have sworn off God so much it will be a miracle of God's grace if they make Heaven at all.
You are right many of US have sworn off of church and religion, because of attitudes like I have seen displayed here. Talk love and preach hate. In what I have seen I do not see Jesus nor the any fruit from the spirit, just hate being spewed.
No, I have no desire to step in a church with the mentality that has been displayed. But I do love the Lord with all my heart, mind and soul. I will continue to worship in my way.
If you want to stand before God and try and even look up toward His face about such horse manure--much less look HIM in the eye and defend it,
be my guest.
I think you will be in for a very severe shock.
Careful you are treading on dangerous ground! When people can say I do not want to go to church because of what I have seen you display!
Matthew 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
MCD
I doubt my wording accused you particularly personally. I accuse the mentalities described and a vast host of churches...I know you didn't mean it personally. Still, you have been very clear that individuals who reject Warren's methods must possess the "mentalities" you speak of. This is painting your brothers in Christ with a ridiculously large brush. Acceptance of the Saddleback formula is not a litmus test for true Christianity.
...a vast number of the churches demonstrating such mentalities and standard stances and practices are a hideous charade of Christianity. And they doom countless SEEKERS and lifelong Christians to hell weekly.I got the strong inkling reading Warren's book that "It's not about you" actually means "It's ALL about you", and this goes far to prove the point. If we can doom "lifelong Christians" (or anyone else) to hell with our stodgy old doctrine, we have more power than Christ Himself, since he promises not to cast out the sheep.
Thanks for your great reply.
MSCASEY--may be this evening before I get to yours.
I felt a broad blackwashing brush was applied to Bro Warren and that rather inaccurately and unfairly. Yes, I used SOMEWHAT of a broad stroke in reply.
BUT I'M ONLY INTERESTED IN FOLK ACCEPTING IT WHEN AND WHERE THE SHOE FITS according to Holy Spirit's convicting work. NOT otherwise.
AND, I'M INCREASINGLY ANNOYED AND WORSE, GRIEVED IN MY SPIRIT by a too quickly owned and thrown
'AGIN IT'
ATTITUDE AND MENTALITY--PROBABLY A SPIRIT
that a LOT of staid, stuck in the mud; stuck in traditions of men ruts etc. sorts of mentalities, groups etc. get on their high horses with regarding a list of things, people, groups, strategies
WHICH HOLY SPIRIT IS OBVIOUSLY AND THOROUGHLY BLESSING AND MOVING THROUGH whether they do it per my script or not.
And, my reading of the NT is that Christ had little to NO patience for such nonsense. I'd rather risk joining HIM AND HIS PERSPECTIVE too intensely on such matters than to risk being amongst those HE censured about such attitudes and stances.
I see this sort of nonsense IN EVERY DENOMINATION. Certainly I think some are every cell and fiber infected like the WELS. But the rot is in every denomination and ALMOST every group older than a year and a half. It's epidemic, insideous and hell inspired just as it was in NT times.
No, acceptance of Warren's marching orders FROM THE LORD is not a litmus test of Christianity.
HOWEVER, "BY THIS SHALL ALL MEN KNOWN . . ."
IS
A LITMUS TEST GIVEN BY THE LORD HIMSELF.
And throwing traditions of men bound blackwashing rocks at thing and people, strategies God is OBVIOUSLY using seems to be the opposite of The Lord's litmus test, to me.
The "IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU" is earnestly felt and taught by Warren and group. He means it. He disciples accordingly. It's obvious.
However, in a sense, THE CROSS demonstrates, that, to the point of death of God's Only Son--it was and IS all about the lost. God moves Heaven and earth to rescue one amongst the 90 and 9.
But I see really, NOTHING in Warren's operation that smacks of the stuff you characters accuse him of. I expected to see at least some example of such--maybe even 20-30%. I saw NOTHING of it and in fact MUCH MORE THE OPPOSITE THAN I EXPECTED TO FIND.
That says a LOT to me. And I went with quite a bit of my discernment antennae quite alert. I was touched and humbled by how much the opposite of your accusations his operation obviously was.
I can't fully account for the blindness that doesn't see it.
I have no intention of getting into the Calvinist Armenian debates with you.
I think it's much important to keep in mind that Scriptures talk about TO THE OVERCOMER . . .
Certainly Christ doesn't toss out SHEEP. And, He goes to great lengths to rescue even sheep who stubbornly and repeatedly wander away or even run off hell bent for destruction. And there I'll stop on that score.
Thanks for your rational msg.
Blessings to you and yours.
Yes, I have seen many problems in churches. Now I see love and tolerance being the thing. That is as long as you agree with every aspect of what is being said. Same as the world isn't it? Those that preach tolerance are the least tolerant of anyone else's view. Those that yell hate-mongers are filled with vast hatred!
No, not where I was coming from at all. Sometimes my hyperbolic tone gets overdone. Not sure that's the case here but could be. Mostly, I think the statements and tones on the other side WARRANTED EVERYTHING I SAID.
I don't really have trouble with you characters as individuals, even as brothers in Christ--per se. I do have enormous trouble with what APPEARS AND SOUNDS TO ME LIKE VERY INSIDEOUS INFECTION from the pit into your thinking and even into your feelings--perhaps especially into your feelings about Warren's efforts.
In some respects, it's nothing more evil than misguided perspective or some such. On the other hand, it's part and parcel of that which JESUS HIMSELF WAS MOST HARSH, STERN, REBUKING OF and FIERCELY OUTRAGED OVER WELL BEYOND ANY OF MY STATEMENTS ON THIS THREAD. And that so many can't seem to see that application in this discussion is extremely disturbing to me. It greatly grieves my spirit, besides that.
There's a root of something in the stances against Warren that are plainly, from my experience and perspective, plainly antiGospel, antiChrist, antievangelism, antidiscipleship even--in addition to being well over the line of hypocritical. I don't apologize for being against such 'agin it' stuff at all. Happy to stand with Jesus and His attitudes toward such.
Another major problem I see in the churches is that it is all about business. Not about fellowship and worshipping! Not about learning about the word of God! Sometimes I feel that it all a social club and has nothing to do with The Lord at all!
Yes, I agree. But I don't see Warren's outfit like that. AND, STRICTLY SPEAKING, this issue has nothing to do with the Warren issue. I've seen the issues you speak about in the above paragraph in both kinds of churches--the traditions of men bound ones and more contemporary ones.
I actually see Warren's outfit as MUCH MORE SUCCESSFUL AT GETTING THE WORD ****INTO THE LIVES**** of new and longer standing members than any of the traditions bound churches I've ever been around. I do NOT see Warren's outfit as a 'mere social club.' I do see it very successful at making EARNEST BIBLICAL FELLOWSHIP A MUCH MORE DIRECTED, FACILITATED AND MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE TOOL FOR THE GOSPEL; FOR DISCIPLESHIP AND FOR INTRODUCING PEOPLE MORE EFFECTIVELY AND LASTINGLY TO THEIR LORD.
The Bible has quite a lot to say in the "one another" Scriptures. It appears to me that Warren's church operations LIVE OUT WONDERFULLY MUCH MORE OF SUCH SCRIPTURAL EXHORTATIONS IN THEIR SOCIAL FUNCTIONING THAN ALL THE TRADITION BOUND CHURCHES I'VE EVER OBSERVED OR BEEN IN, PUT TOGETHER.
***************************
I do want to note here--that in most operations and movements whether Hagin's or whoever's--the 2nd tier out and certainly the 3rd and 4th seem to have much more pollution than the original manifestations. The outer circles of such things seem to more often get much more of the striving and methods of man involved than the leading of Holy Spirit and His intimately involved leadership in all the practical apsects of the operations. But that's a whole other discussion.
I don't believe that the above awful phenomenon is any excuse for Warren not sharing the blessings he's learned from what God has led him into. I do think that churches need to discern carefully and prayerfully what of Warren's stuff is fitting for THEIR congregation.
And, trying to plaster Warren's perspective and methods on top of tradition bound mentalities and leadership and/or on top of stubborn tradition bound deacons in the pew WILL NOT WORK--and would probably end up being the worst of both worlds. FIRST, THERE HAS TO BE A WHOLESALE CHANGE OF HEART, ATTITUDE AND PERSPECTIVE of the church leadership and preferably a wholesale change in the hearts and lives of the social stars in the congregation as well. Otherwise, a bastardized mess will likely result.
You folk seem to see Warren's stuff as some sort of splashy hollyweed horror plastered on top of an otherwise potentially Biblical church to the watering down and dissipating of THE TRUE GOSPEL . . . a kind of externalizing, shallowizing, watering down of The Gospel.
I do NOT see it that way at all. I see the whole thing founded on Christ's heart for the lost and born of a deep heart and spirit--sea change--in how the Beloved relate to those seeking God and beginning their relationship with God. That sort of heart felt inner change that only HOLY SPIRIT CAN BRING ABOUT at the very core and undergirding every aspect of Warren's operation and all their publications. I can only applaud such an obvious work of Holy Spirit.
However, I would imagine that many johnny come lately's can view or hear of or even read Warren and want to jump on the bandwagon without the inner heart/spirit change. They can go through all the motions and do all the externals about it--AND IT WON'T WASH. It is likely that some sort of bastardized horror perhaps akin to what you folks are railing at--would result.
But I don't see that as Warren's fault at all. I see him going to EXTRAORDINARY LENGTHS TO PREVENT THAT, ACTUALLY. The same phenomena has occurred probably in every great move of God through the centuries. Mankind has a habit and natural pit-born/natural man born inclination to bastardize WHATEVER OF GOD is sent his way. Warren did not originate that phenomena. Satan did.
The only thing I hate on my side of the discussion is the spirit/attitude from hell that seems so vividly and persistently presented in the wording, spirit, attitude, tone on the other side of the discussion. I actually recognize that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against satan's imps in such matters. I'm sorry if that has not been more evident in my wording and tones.
I must say, the very title of this thread seemed to hurl at least disdain--and rather haughty, self-righteous, pharisaical disdain--if not hatred at the outset. One should not be too surprised at reaping from such sowing.
More Christian love from you! I don't care what someone reads! If they have a book as I had with all four versions side by side there are some verses that have been so drastically changed that it did not even have the same meaning. If they want to read a bible that is gender sensitive that's fine. Just don't cram it down my throat and tell me it is the word of God! And regardless of what you say, others are still entitled to their opinion!!!
. . .
For those that seek truth will find it! For not one of His will be lost!
We are mostly on the same page on these issues, I think. I think the gender sensitive bastardizations of God's word are hideous and from the pit. But God didn't speak in KJV English. And many modern translations and even paraphrase structured translations are quite faithful to the original. And pretending and tirading otherwise is neither honest nor Godly.
I like parallel texts of Scripture. Thankfully, SOME scholarship does give new insights on some verses. But usually the changes or new slants or insights don't necessarily, FOR ME, do away with earlier truths represented in earlier translations. My God is big enough to be involved in both--especially given that we don't usually have the originals handy. Some early KJV scholarship was a bit askew for very practical state of the art reasons. Thankfully, not much and nothing crucial.
Certainly virtually all the so called "higher criticism" type of so called scholarship by a host of idiot humanists, agnostics and atheists is nothing better than the evilly seduced blind leading the blind. No true believer would countenance any such, imho.
BTW, I don't see anything unloving about my above paragraph. If the shoe doesn't fit, DON'T WEAR IT. If it does fit, make some adjustment in humility and contrition and go on. Squealling like a stuck pig leads one to believe that there was too much truth for comfort perceived but no willingness to profit from it.
So the appropriate Christian love is to run them out of the church? Instead of having two different services? Attempting to accommodate both!
I'M ALL FOR HAVING TWO TYPES OF SERVICES. And probably most remotely modern, contemporary or aspiring to be churches should have both kinds of services. Actually, probably all alive churches should have when they have members older than 45 and younger than 30. Anything less is probably not SERVING THE BRETHEREN VERY WELL at all. And if leadership is not philosophically, heart-feltly, earnestly, authentically servant-hearted at foundation and in deed--then it's probably not worthy being in leadership at all.
Alas, I suppose it's reasonable for some smaller groups to be one or the other according to their membership--at least until they get their RELATIONSHIP evangelization/discipleship program enough up to snuff to get more seekers/congregants involved from the alternate side of such preferences.
ACTUALLY, I'm more on your side of things in some respects--such as music. I get annoyed when there are NO hymns. And a couple of churches here have/had volumes routinely 95-104 db (Yes, I measured it with my Radioshack db meter) and too frequently 125-150 db! THAT'S UNLOVING, INSENSITIVE, PROBABLY ILLEGAL AND ARROGANT because they REFUSED to even CONSIDER lowering it or even understanding that babies in the room were being unalterably damaged for life from hours of such nonsense. And a lot of the heavy beat--head-ache inducing 'music' would well be lain totally and fully aside with a resulting increase in my sense of worship!
However, I CAN OBSERVE AND ALLOW that 100's of other people--evidently already half deaf from being reared in the secular rock culture--have another mentality and orientation to worship. OK. I can accept that. Then distribute ear plugs [sometimes it was LITERALLY PHYSICALLY PAINFUL WITH earplugs!]--distribute ear plugs at the door. Or, like you suggest--have different services.
VOLUME is not GODLINESS. The amplifier is NOT going to get more anointing or Heavenly blessings for being driven maxed out. Sheesh! /rant
You are right many of US have sworn off of church and religion, because of attitudes like I have seen displayed here. Talk love and preach hate. In what I have seen I do not see Jesus nor the any fruit from the spirit, just hate being spewed.
Not at all. I do hate the lies of satan which seem to have infected wholesale the arguments from the other side. I don't even hate Shrillery though I hate all she stands for and most of her methods and tons of her pronouncements. I certainly don't hate any of you. I'm not really even that annoyed with you as persons. Only the enemy for infecting so much of your perspectives as far as I can tell.
And, I've actually only been fierce about the sorts of things that I read Jesus being fierce about in the Gospels. I don't have any apology about being fierce with Him about the same sorts of attitudes, stances etc.
I actually believe that probably most if not all of you folks on the other side of these issues in this thread are well meaning brothers in The Lord. AT least I prefer and choose to think so at this point. It is possible that not too far down the road, it may become evident that some individuals are so wedded to the perspectives of the other side that I would have no choice but to see them in the same vein that Christ saw some of the pharisees in. But I really resist that as I don't like to see people that way.
But the perspective, I have little to no patience with. It has all the flavors, smells, tones, hallmarks of coming from the pit. And I don't mind being fierce about that. But I'm not AGAINST INDIVIDUALS, per se.
Yes, it can be loving to hit people upside the head with a verbal 2 X 4. Jesus was loving when He sternly exhorted the pharisees. It may have been their only last chance at being awakened enough to get on the side of Heaven--in such matters or perhaps generally speaking.
It is
CONCEIVABLE
That such could be the case with some individuals here though I have no specific persons in mind and don't want to.
No, I have no desire to step in a church with the mentality that has been displayed. But I do love the Lord with all my heart, mind and soul. I will continue to worship in my way.
Oh, I think you COULD BE discerning enough to pick up on my caring beneath ALL my words.
Am glad to read that you love the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul. I SURE HOPE SO. It was difficult to catch that in the way Brother Warren was talked about. If worshipping in your way brings you closer to God and helps others see God in you--BY ALL MEANS CONTINUE! Am all for it!
It just appeared/sounded/sounds like there's something greatly lacking in loving the Lord 'with all your heart, mind and soul' IF THERE'S SUCH OPPOSITE EVIDENCE in your attitude, stance toward brother Warren. It seems to me that if you loved The Lord deeply and broadly as you assert--THE LORD would have been more successful at getting you to see the merit in Brother Warren's mission and ways of carrying out his mission as unto and before The Lord.
I have 0.000000000000000000% doubt that Brother Warren LOVES THE LORD WITH ALL HIS HEART, MIND AND SOUL--
AND!!!! OTHERS AS HIMSELF. It leaks out all over the place in the way he leads things and says things.
It didn't leak out at all from the ways you talked about Bro Warren.
Careful you are treading on dangerous ground! When people can say I do not want to go to church because of what I have seen you display!
I really don't get your meaning or connection with much of anything from the above 2 sentences.
AS Francis Schaeffer sp? taught. JESUS GAVE THE WORLD THE RIGHT TO SAY WE WERE NOT CHRISTIANS when they didn't see the love. JESUS DID THAT. The stern school marm-in-too-tight a bun, corset and garters--perhaps with a too starchy and tight high collar pressing on her vital blood vessels in her neck to her brain--when such a mentality and spirit assaults visitors to a church routinely and relentlessly;
And when such a mentality, spirit, attitude, way of doing things is justified as being MORE RIGHTEOUS, SUPER RIGHTEOUS, THE ONLY RIGHT WAY TO DO THINGS--then I think one can make some soundly Biblical observations about such a thing. Especially at 57 years of age and tons of observations of such.
I still say, that such churches have done far more of satan's work in keeping people out of Heaven and assisting them toward hell than I've seen them do of getting people into Heaven and out of hell.
Certainly churches are likely to be some mixture. But when the mixture includes a very significant percentage of such stances, attitudes, it is easy to see why
JESUS HIMSELF RESERVED HIS MOST INTENSE AND PERSISTENT, MOST FIERCE REBUKE AND CENSURE FOR RELIGIOIUS LEADERS MODELING SUCH STANCES SO STUBBORNLY, SO INTENSELY AND SO SELF-RIGHTEOUSLY PROUDLY.
And, I warn any involved in such churches--particularly leadership--The Lord is getting increasingly close to CLEANING HOUSE ON *ALL* CHURCHES. And such stances, attitudes, spirits in control of such churches WILL NOT STAND. All that can be shaken will be shaken. And that hideous junk WILL BE REMOVED FROM THE CHURCHES OF THE LIVING GOD or they will no longer have any candlestick in their midst and no anointing. They will find themselves on the other side of the fence with the totally apostate secularized satanically ecumenical congregations.
I don't say that with any satisfaction at all. I think it's a frightful prospect that grieves my bones. Virtually all churches have plenty to be tearful prostrate on the floor about hours on end. But the mentality, spirit, attitude operating style I've outlined in this thread and characterized as school marmy etc.--that hideous excuse for Christianity will not stand when The Lord is done cleaning house.
And this time, the pharisees and others with such attitudes, spirits, stances will not Crucify Christ. They will be converted or done away with by the fierce truth from Christ's mouth, from His Spirit.
The shaking and refiner's fires are coming to all churches--to all of life on this planet. Hiding behind prissy-ness, starchy-ness, human traditions and rigidities will offer NO sanctuary at all.
It *IS* ****LOVING**** TO DECLARE THE TRUTH ABOUT SUCH MATTERS regardless of how uncomfortable it is to say it or hear it.
Matthew 7 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
My conscience is clear. I would have felt convicted had I not shared as I've felt constrained of The Holy Spirit to share. I'm far from flawless. But on this matter, the Lord has taught me very forcefully over a long period of time.
You will consider this off the wall insanity but I will note: As God has sometimes had me pray regarding some spiritual leaders locked into such mentalities--I've prayed for God to change them, move them from the congregation or take them out of this life and home to Heaven within a year. God chose to take them home in multiple cases. Such things will begin to happen more and more.
And it will happen instantly when stubbornness resists Holy Spirit's call to a different way, a different stance before God and the world.
The time when we could play church and do things out of human strength; with human priorities, human attitudes etc. and try and get God to bless it--those days are rapidly drawing to a close.
And when the refiner's fires and the Holy Spirit shaking visits a congregation or an area--those truly loving God mind, heart and soul will get the message and get on the stick, get on God's pattern, God's ways of doing things in earnestly quick and short order by the Holy Spirit and their freely chosen willful earnest desire to be wholly on God's side operating wholly in God's ways.
But if when the shaking comes, folks rush like the pharisees to doctrines of men; traditions of men; attitudes from hell; etc. then they will find whatever they are standing on disintegrating out from under them at best.
I doubt the earnest folks even on the other side of the issues in this thread will be among that censured number. I ****THINK**** I detect a genuine desire to follow God. But the shaking that is around the corner will be severe for virtually all believers. God will have a spotless Bride ready for His Son. And that will mean that a lot of the attitudes expressed toward Bro Warren AND TOWARD WHAT GOD HAS BRO WARREN DOING, will have to be let go of and cast aside.
It would be different if that were just my crazy idea. It would be nicer and more comfortable to me if I could pass it off as that. But this warning I write about is burning in my bones and not of my own doing. Christ's fierceness in the Gospels compared to His coming fierceness on such issues will seem like comparing cotton candy to a volcano.
I don't think anyone on this thread is in the super dangerous bucket at the moment. But there's enough of the dangerous attitude, spirit, stance represented in statements about Brother Warren that a very shrill warning IS in order. Those with a heart to hear The Spirit, will hear Him.
AS for me, I'm inconsequential. Just a muttering voice stumbling around in the wilderness. But these issues of this thread are well pondered, well studied, intensely experienced issues and much prayed over--over a wide diversity of churches and a significant diversity of denominations and local congregations across half the planet. I'm not just farting. I'm not just blowing my owns smoke. I'm not just pontificating my own biases.
Anyone reading these words is responsible to take them to God and ask God what of them are worth prayerful pondering for that individual in their situation. That's mostly what I ask. Blow away anything not of His Spirit.
Most sincerely,
Quoting from "The Message", please show us the scriptural arguments against homosexual behavior.
Got Trojan Horsy?
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