Quix
Since May 12, 2001
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Quix
Since May 12, 2001
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My post on another thread:
I am very much against all forms of replacement theology.
God keeps all of His promises. Every. Single. One.
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. - Jer 31:33-37
And the Song of Moses will be sung along with the Song of the Lamb:
The Song of Moses (Deut 32) was from God.
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. - Romans 11:11
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. - Romans 11:18-29
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:7-8
To: Alamo-Girl
Am humbled by your kind reply.
I realize that probably 99.99% of . . . some groups . . . hereon are likely incredulous that I post as I’d prefer to be posted to were the shoes switched.
However, God and some loved ones either KNOW the truth of that or can believe that.
Actually, it doesn’t make sense to live any other way. Particularly if one believes The Bible, at all.
If we do NOT do unto others . . . then our doings will CERTAINLY come back to haunt us in most prickly ways.
And . . . while I know what mean is like. And in some very rare circumstances, such a feeling and motive COULD arise. I’ve just never found such feelings or motives attractive. Initially, I was a fraidy cat, wimp, afraid of my own shadow so mean wasn’t much of an option.
However, the stronger desperate need was to be understood and connected. Mean doesn’t help either goal very well.
Then, in some fleeting incidents where such feelings arose, I found I hated the feeling. I felt all prickly and trashy INSIDE. I was troubled enough WITHOUT that sort of feeling so, by God’s Grace, I learned to quickly resist and lay such feelings aside.
Besides, being an odd bird, I got used to being the brunt of a lot of meanness. And I certainly didn’t want to become like THAT.
There’s enough meanness in the world. More than enough.
By God’s Grace—
Being provocative CAN sometimes produce benefit.
Being humorous is better than not being so.
Being perceptive can be of help.
Being witty and looking at things in atypical ways can be useful.
Yet, as Scripture indicates . . . loving God wholly and others as ourselves tops them all.
And, usually being loving is obvious. However, not always.
Your understanding, by God’s Grace and Spirit, of complex moi is a deeping treasure. Thanks a thousand penguins worth.
413 posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:31:09 AM by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 404
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I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of Jesus through the Holy Spirit did not move me to do so .
True [divine] love “confuses” the forces of darkness!
* True love is “real” [has no pretense] .
“pretense” - a false show of something; insincere or false profession;
* True love is a divine seed that will not “go away”. It might be covered over with “soil” that is not fertile. It may be cast upon the barren ground of a stony heart but ultimately - if that “seed” is watered and the fallow and barren ground of the stony heart is “broken up”, thus allowing that seed entrance into the innermost fibre of that one’ being, then that seed of My divine love shall grow and finally and finally give birth to “every” characteristic and physical manifestation that I had originally intended.
* “True love” never seeks to “control” or “manipulate” anyone or anything for its own personal benefit; but true love will always take “all” that which I have blessed them with in Christ and exercise “faithful” prayer and ministry of the Word to bring “all” those who cross their path under the “umbrella” of My loving plan for their lives.
* True love always “chooses” to believe the “best” in any given situation.
* True love has no “conditions” attached to it.
* True love is divine in ALL of its ways, and leads to the fullness of destiny for all involved [found abiding in it] [John 15:7,10a].
* True love is “unconditional” - and NEVER self-serving [1 Corinthians 13:4-8a].
“unconditional” - limited by no conditions; absolute;
* True love draws those who desire to love [and be loved].
* True love consists of words and actions which have their origin in Me - and in Me alone.
* True love is NEVER based on “performance” - or the lack thereof. It is based on My love “abiding” in the hearts of My children. It is a love that is both divine and eternal - and it NEVER fails to accomplish the fullness of My Will and purpose.
* True love will always prosper [increase]. For true love says and does ONLY that which My Spirit [Who is the Spirit of Love] leads and guides them to.
* True love is “relentless” in its pursuit of My best for oneself - and for all those in their sphere of existence.
* True love takes no offense because true love [which is the spontaneous fruit of right relationship with Me] no longer lives for itself but for others - and, also, the perfect fulfillment of My Will and purposes, alone. The one “abiding” in Love takes NO offense because they “understand” [because the Spirit of Love abiding within them reveals the “spiritual reality” of any given situation] and, therefore, they forgive ALL things [by faith], instantaneously.
* To truly love those that one is in “relationship” with [mother, father, husband, wife, children, friend etc.] is to obey Me on their behalf at ALL times [Proverbs 17:17]. This constitutes an abiding love - for true love NEVER seeks its own nor does it seek to fulfil the ungodly desire of others [in the “name” of love] through compromise.
* Just because one may appear to have given up on you never give up on them - for true love NEVER gives up [and, thus, never fails to accomplish the perfect purpose that I have set My heart on].
....”A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another”.... John 13:34-35 NASB
....”Since by your obedience to the Truth through the [Holy] Spirit you have purified your hearts for the sincere affection of the brethren, [see that you] love one another fervently from a pure heart”.... 1 Peter 1:22 The Amplified Translation
....”Let no unwholesome [unloving] word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give [impart] grace to those who hear”.... Ephesians 4:29 NASB
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2578704/posts?page=11624#11624
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
WHEN GOD
HIMSELF, WALKING ISRAEL'S PATHS 2000 YEARS AGO
REPEATEDLY
REFERRED TO
"IT IS WRITTEN . . ."
AS HIS
POINT OF AUTHORITY denial of that is a
DENIAL OF GOD'S OWN EMPHASIS.
He did not even say:
"DADDY SAYS: . . . "
HE, CREATOR GOD, SAID
"IT IS WRITTEN . . . "
Papal Pontificators' STUBBORN, REBELLIOUS REFUSAL TO TAKE THOSE DECLARATIONS OF FINAL AUTHORITY FOR WHAT THEY ARE,
Is yet again a brazen addiction to idolizing an INSTITUTION, A DOGMA, ANOTHER GOSPEL, SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM AND OPPOSED TO GOD'S AUTHORITY.
There's no more charitable way to put the stark horrific truth.
Weasel words about the bureaucratic magicsterical power-mongers will not do.
Appeals to rubber 'Bibles' & rubber histories about Peter and the Vatican before it began in 300-400AD will not do.
The stark TRUTH IS
CREATOR GOD IN PERSON DECLARED
"IT IS WRITTEN . . . "
AS A POINT OF FINAL AUTHORITY.
REFUSAL TO TAKE CREATOR GOD'S OWN DECLARATIONS OF WHAT HE HIMSELF APPEALED TO AS THE FINAL AUTHORITY
IS BEYOND SUICIDALLY IGNORANT, REBELLIOUS IDIOTIC & STUPID.
IT IS STUBBORNLY REBELIOUS.
It is sticking an INSTITUTION'S FOSSILIZED GRANITE FINGER IN GOD'S EYE AND INSISTING THAT THE INSTITUTUION KNOWS BETTER THAN GOD.
HUBRIS TO THE MAX is an inadequate phrase by many orders of magnitude.
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DR JESSE MARCEL JR AND MAJOR JESSE MARCEL SR LINKS ON YOUTUBE:
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2578704/posts?page=3682#3682 .
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I have a bias that FR is the most wonderful living room/front porch available to mankind and certainly USA citizens and visitors. The diversity of people--most--hopefully--with a strong conservative bent--and most with a great joy in teasing out, tossing around all kinds of conventional and not so conventional constructions on reality.
As my dissertation chairman--a rather extremely brilliant Mormon bishop--when I asked him how he handled the changes in the Book of Mormon (which supposedly has never changed), he replied that: LIFE IS SOOOOOOOOO COMPLEX, JUST ABOUT ANY COCKAMAMIE EXPLANATION WILL DO. While I'm rather orthodox in my Christianity--I think he has a good point.
God alone has complete knowledge about all the perspectivs, facts, pseudo facts, deceptions, disinformation, secrets, manipulations, tyrannies etc. afoot in the world. But it's fun to collect puzzle pieces and discuss them with other folk of reasonably fair mindedness.
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TO ME, the evidence that we are in the Biblical "end times" is so abundantly obvious--virtually in every direction and common newspaper headlines--it's hard to understand how everyone doesn't see it.
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I believe the BibleCodeDigest.com graphics and explanations about the skeptics/believers' experiment conclusively proving the validity--those graphics as well as the referenced papers are more than impressive--I think to any fair-minded person.
Just the "mark of the beast" implant/national/international ID rush thereto is evidence enough of the times we are in. Last night (1 Jun 06), on C2CAM, a Christian pastor researcher was noting how the immigration bills before Congress are BOTH--either version--are mandating a FEDERAL ID NUMBER WITH BIOMETRIC INFO etc. etc. . . . without which no one would be able to work--clearly well on the road to the Revelation described MOTBeast
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I strongly agree with Jim Robinson when he wrote:
President Reagan faced down the Soviets and ended the cold war, but the Beast is still with us. It simply changes form. Whether it appears in the form of Bolshevism, Nazism, fascism, communism, Islamofascism, etc, it is the same enemy: Totalitarianism. The all powerful state.
Been watching the history channel stuff on Hitler. The Machiavellian swaying of masses is sooooooo similar to Shrillery's and the MSM's. And the slowly heating water the frog is in . . . as the State rachets up it's tyrannical smothering control factors . . . WAKE UP AMERICA!
THANKS TONS JIM, for this opportunity to stand up and be counted on the side of right, righteousness, freedom, liberty, God, Family and the Constitution!
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RE QUIXICATED POSTING STYLE:
courtesy of FREEPER Elsie
QUOTE FROM O.P. OF THREAD:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2547599/posts?page=692
POST #692
Boldness, forcefulness, and righteous anger have their place; but wrongly applied they become intemperate and indiscreet zeal...
LIKEWISE:
Sometimes meek, shy, retiring, and just trying to get along, can be just as effective as lukewarm puke.
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LINKS to threads for Qx REFERENCE:
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HERE'S A FONT TEST WITH FONTS FROM WORD FROM OFFICE 2007. PLEASE LET ME KNOW YOUR FAVORITES. Those that did not work--did not produce anything significantly different--are listed at the bottom so folks can see what does not work on FR and not bother trying. I hope to put this on my FR home page shortly. NOTE: CASTELLAR HAS WORKED IN TESTS before BUT HAS NOT ALWAYS WORKED IN POSTS. I don't know why.
ASSUMING more than a few work out! LOL. Will post regardless of what the preview looks like
FONT TESTS
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
ARIAL BLACK
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
ALGERIAN
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
aharoni
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
BROADWAY
. .
The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
CALIBRI
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
CANDARA
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
CASTELLAR
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
CORBEL
. .
The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
DAVID
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
ELEPHANT
. .
The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
EUPHEMIA
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
FORTE
. .
The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
GARAMOND
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
GEORGIA
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
GIGI
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
GISHA
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
GULIM
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
GUNGSUH CHE
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
IMPACT
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
JOKERMAN
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
KAITI
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
MAGNETO
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
PAPYRUS
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
PLAYBILL
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
ROCKWELL CONDENSED
. .
The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
STENCIL
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The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPED OVER THE LAZY DOG.
NOW IS THE TIME for all good FREEPERS to WAKE-UP and smell the stench of GLOBALISM/COMMUNISM/SOCIALISM/TYRANNY.
TAHOMA
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I'm just a Christian plain and simple and therefore do not wish to take sides in theological disputes.
Instead, I'd like to emphasize Jesus' instruction to us on how to pray to the Father, the most important petition we Christians will ever make.
From the Sermon on the Mount:
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. - Matthew 6:5-15
Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: - Psalms 139:23
The earth [is] the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. - Psalms 24:1
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: - Isaiah 29:13
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. - Matthew 6:33
Truly recognize and honor God the Father as our Father, too.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. – Romans 8:15-17
Consider Who God IS – Who IS hearing our prayer.
Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, - Isaiah 46:9
Welcome God’s kingdom, no matter what.
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. – Revelation 22:20
Truly, if we love someone, we want what he wants. By surrendering our will to His, we are expressing our love for Him and our trust in Him.
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. – Matt 26:42
We must not ask only physical nourishment, but more importantly, we must ask for spiritual nourishment.
I am that bread of life. – John 6:48
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? – Luke 11:13
We must remember that God’s justice is perfectly balanced and seek His justice. We each individually build the scales whereby we will each be individually weighed.
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: - Luke 6:37
Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. – Matt 5:7
And we should ask God to Shepherd us throughout our lives.
He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever. - Psalms 23
Whether one’s Scriptures include this Doxology or not, we should end our prayer to the Father with an exclamation, a “Praise God” or “Selah” or “Amen.”
By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name. – Hebrews 13:15
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The following by Alamo-Girl states my own convictions better than I. I believe there is much eternal spiritual life in the following paragraphs. May the reader prayerfully ponder and be lastingly edified by them:
Indeed, it is not enough to know the Scriptures:
Joshua nor the people even knew there was an accursed thing in their midst. But because of it, God was not with the men who first went to take Ai and they failed horribly. And once the people searched out the abomination and rid themselves of it, repented and sanctified the assembly before God, He again was with them in a great display of power. Indeed, the Tanach has many such examples.
The moral of the story is that assemblies of men can erroneously presume that God is with them when He is not. See also Revelation 2 and 3.
I realize that many here would say that Matt 16:18 protects the succession of a physical assembly of men from the apostles to this day:
In sum, an assembly of men may or may not be comprised solely of the redeemed. If there is an accursed thing in the midst of the assembly, the power of God may not be with the assembly itself even though He is with His own (Romans 8:9) who may be members of the assembly. Conversely, any particular assembly may become empowered by God, or empowered once again. This is the lesson of Joshua 7 et al.
The problem with assemblies of men is the men themselves, i.e. that they are men. It has been said that a camel is the horse a committee would have built. The Internal Revenue Code is another example – as is the rest of our huge body of civil and criminal laws and regulations. The legislatures busy themselves making things all the more complicated and huge.
And the same is true of all assemblies of men who promulgate doctrines and traditions – whether Judaic or Christian or whatever.
By contrast, Truth is elegant – so elegant it can be spoken in a parable and thereby hidden in plain view. (Matt 13)
Moreover, some of the doctrines and traditions of men can be as harmless as the color of the garment a minister or priest shall wear. Or they can be a frivolous waste of time:
But pens and sheep aside, the only truly important part is that His Name be hallowed, that His Will be done, that His Kingdom come.
To God be the glory.
[Added Quix color emphasis, of course . . . it's my . . . uhhh . . . tradition.] ######################################################################
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FROM:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2545641/posts?page=468#468
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Truly, I know of no instant fix for learning to trust God with every thing in our lives whether great or small.
Letting go is an ongoing struggle for me. I diligently begin each morning once again laying it all down and chastening myself that if I, like the Hebrews in the examples above, insist on having things my way - He will let me and I will fail.
I remind myself that the only cure for my troubles is to lay them down before Him and not touch them again because it's a "done deal."
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. - Matt 16:23-25
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them] - Mark 11:24
And worse, I'm blind. All I can see is through my own eyes. I can't see what the other guy sees and I can never truly understand him. And I certainly cannot see "all that there is" all at once. Only God can, only He speaks objective truth. He is Truth. A thing is true because He said it.
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. - Psalms 33:6
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. – Psalms 19:1-3
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from this thread: HERE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1848700/posts?page=406#406
More gems of wisdom from Holy Spirit through you. Thanks tons. I love it when you articulate my convictions better than I do. More to add to the home page. Thanks enormously. LUB.
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For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed [himself] to him that judgeth righteously: - I Peter 2:20-23
[A-G]: The inability of men to experience the power of God cuts across every Judeo/Christian theological fence.
[A-G]: Jesus was speaking to the Jews, after all, and they claimed to believe God did all the miracles recorded in the Torah and the prophets, that the Torah existed before the world and was given by Him. And yet they knew so little of the power of the God, they didn’t recognize Him when He was talking to them.
[A-G]: It is as if, despite all their claims to the contrary, they had treated the words of God in the Torah as mere words which needed the explication and justification of their mortal religious experts to be understood.
[A-G]: Evidently, they had no idea the Word of God is alive, is God, is Jesus Christ.
[QX]: There is a very serious warning in the above that I have observed in my life to be a rather emphatic truth. I did not need to have a magicsterical body propagate an encyclical or a series of sermons to convince me. Plain observations and knowledge of Scripture--and most emphatically Holy Spirit's persistent leading toward all truth--made such quite plain to me a long time ago.
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[A-G]: Again, the power of God. There is no substitute for Jesus Christ – hearing His voice, being known by Him, knowing Him, being born anew, indwelled by the Spirit, loving God exceedingly above all else. (John 3, John 10, John 15, Romans 8, I Cor 2, I John 4, Matt 22, et al)
[A-G]:
This is no substitute for Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
[A-G]:
Many times it is self: possessions, health, beauty, strength, power. Sometimes it is a child, a spouse, a lover, a celebrity, etc. It could be the church, a religious figure, a preacher. Or it could be something material – a building, an object, a thing. Or an ideology or political view or a doctrine or tradition of men. And so on.
[A-G; Qx added emphasis]:
[A-G]: Oh, and because we mortals are so great at seeing only what we want to see, I strongly recommend now and again asking someone else what he believes, based on our words and deeds, is most important to us. The answer can be very illuminating.
To God be the glory!
[Qx]: I strongly encourage your last suggestion above. Asking such questions of those around me--including at least one or two who often disagree with me--has been a very redemptive habit in my life.
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Here are Scriptures supporting the point that God remembers Israel. Or to put it another way, God keeps all of His promises:
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. – Romans 11:18-28
But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
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Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
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Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. - Jer 31:33-37
To God be the glory!
401 posted on 07/23/2007 9:54:21 PM MDT by Alamo-Girl
THANKS TONS Angel-Gal
May God preserve and extend the Peace of Jeruslame. And should 'festivities' be necessary--may He show Himself mighty in Israel's behalf ASAP. 22 Jul 2007
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To: MarkBsnr; the_conscience; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; hosepipe; Quix; kosta50
Thank you so much for your replies!
Heresy almost broke the early Church many times. Heretical beliefs were strongly dealt with both because they would divide the Church into factions, much as the Reformation did to the Protestants, but even more so because they were wrong and anti Christian.
The point is how the "powers that be" dealt with what they considered at the time to be heresy. Which is to say, by "book burning" they attacked their own credibility and authority.
Which Church authority hated it and banned it at what time?
Philastrius, circa 380 A.D. Liber de Haeresibus
How would you approach somebody that strongly believed that the world was flat and that the sun moved around the earth?
With loving kindness of course. Also, I avoid arguing bizarre theological beliefs and instead mostly proclaim the words of God. That is why my own words are spare on my replies here. If God has given someone "ears to hear" he will hear His words, and that is what matters.
me: ***I believe God. I love Him and trust Him. And He authenticates His own words to me, personally.*** you: How?
By bringing His words alive within. His words are not merely language symbols – whether written or spoken. The people Christ is addressing below were physically hearing Him but they could not Spiritually hear Him:
Do you believe in the Scripture that the Catholic Church has given to you? If so, why?
I believe God. God the Father has revealed Himself in four ways: (1) through the Person of Jesus Christ His only begotten son, (2) through the indwelling Holy Spirit, (3) through Scripture and (4) through Creation both Spiritual and Physical.
The words of God come from God, not man. It doesn't matter who He chooses to convey them or make a record of them - whether Moses, David, prophets, councils of Jews or Christians or a few goatherders in Qumran.
God's words are not constrained by the worthiness or position of mortals. Even Nebuchadnezzar (Dan 4:37) and Caiphas (John 11:49-52) conveyed words of God. It is a deep Spiritual error in a man to be proud that God has used him to sing His praises.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. - John 12:48 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. – Matthew 22:29
Guide is the key word here. The Spirit leads and whomsoever will, will follow. How do you know, outside of the Church, that the voices are of God?
I’ve known Jesus Christ personally for a half century. He is not a hypothesis. He lives. Recognizing Him is easy for me now.
Doctrine of whom Christ is
Spiritual discernment
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one. – John 10:26-30 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. – James 4:7
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23
We are wise to also apply the fruit test to ourselves, regularly - kind of like taking our spiritual "vitals."
For instance, when a Christian is anxious then something is spiritually amiss, something is obstructing the Spirit of Christ in him. On the other hand, when he is full of peace, there is no cause for alarm - at least on that point.
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VATICAN UFO DOC HERE: http://www.iht.com/bin/printfriendly.php?id=12885393
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Thank you so much for your encouragements, your testimony, and your question, dear brother in Christ! Sorry for the long reply, but I have much to say.
Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. – John 6:65
First, pray without ceasing.
Secondly, because He is truly our Father who art in heaven, if we ask Him for more of Himself, He will not deny us:
Thirdly, we must get out of the way and stay out of the way. To whatever extent we are successful in this, we are no longer in control of our lives but more like a spectator with God in control. And we will know the difference.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. - Matthew 6:9-15
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother. – Galatians 1:11-19
For if one truly loves God in this way, God is his reality - everything else, including every potential distraction, is moot. Therefore he will hunger for and be satisfied by the words of God - for they are truly spirit and life.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63
Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus’ feet, and heard his word.
But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. – Luke 10:38-42
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy
Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. – I Corinthians 2:12-14
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To: RegulatorCountry; Quix
The theme of the Book of Enoch dealing with the nature and deeds of the fallen angels so infuriated the later Church fathers that one, Filastrius, actually condemned it openly as heresy (Filastrius, Liber de Haeresibus, no. 108). Nor did the rabbis deign to give credence to the book's teaching about angels. Rabbi Simeon ben Jochai in the second century A.D. pronounced a curse upon those who believed it (Delitzsch, p. 223).
So the book was denounced, banned, cursed, no doubt burned and shredded-and last but not least, lost (and conveniently forgotten) for a thousand years. But with an uncanny persistence, the Book of Enoch found its way back into circulation two centuries ago.
In 1773, rumors of a surviving copy of the book drew Scottish explorer James Bruce to distant Ethiopia. True to hearsay, the Book of Enoch had been preserved by the Ethiopic church, which put it right alongside the other books of the Bible...
Though it was once believed to be post-Christian (the similarities to Christian terminology and teaching are striking), recent discoveries of copies of the book among the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran prove that the book was in existence before the time of Jesus Christ. But the date of the original writing upon which the second century B.C. Qumran copies were based is shrouded in obscurity. It is, in a word, old...
There is abundant proof that Christ approved of the Book of Enoch. Over a hundred phrases in the New Testament find precedents in the Book of Enoch.
Another remarkable bit of evidence for the early Christians' acceptance of the Book of Enoch was for many years buried under the King James Bible's mistranslation of Luke 9:35, describing the transfiguration of Christ: "And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, 'This is my beloved Son: hear him." Apparently the translator here wished to make this verse agree with a similar verse in Matthew and Mark. But Luke's verse in the original Greek reads: "This is my Son, the Elect One (from the Greek ho eklelegmenos, lit., "the elect one"): hear him."
The "Elect One" is a most significant term (found fourteen times) in the Book of Enoch. If the book was indeed known to the apostles of Christ, with its abundant descriptions of the Elect One who should "sit upon the throne of glory" and the Elect One who should "dwell in the midst of them," then the great scriptural authenticity is accorded to the Book of Enoch when the "voice out of the cloud" tells the apostles, "This is my Son, the Elect One"-the one promised in the Book of Enoch.
The Book of Jude tells us in vs. 14 that "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied..." Jude also, in vs. 15, makes a direct reference to the Book of Enoch (2:1), where he writes, "to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly..." ...
Many of the early church fathers also supported the Enochian writings. Justin Martyr ascribed all evil to demons whom he alleged to be the offspring of the angels who fell through lust for women (from the Ibid.)-directly referencing the Enochian writings.
Athenagoras, writing in his work called Legatio in about 170 A.D., regards Enoch as a true prophet. He describes the angels which "violated both their own nature and their office." In his writings, he goes into detail about the nature of fallen angels and the cause of their fall, which comes directly from the Enochian writings.
Many other church fathers: Tatian (110-172); Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (115-185); Clement of Alexandria (150-220); Tertullian (160-230); Origen (186-255); Lactantius (260-330); in addition to: Methodius of Philippi, Minucius Felix, Commodianus, and Ambrose of Milanalso-also approved of and supported the Enochian writings...
One by one the arguments against the Book of Enoch fade away. The day may soon arrive when the final complaints about the Book of Enoch's lack of historicity and "late date" are also silenced by new evidence of the book's real antiquity.
In a nutshell, I know it is important if only for background on Genesis 6 and prophecy.
Oh, and I do not recall the crevo thread. I've been around since '98 and have been on many of them. But if I run into it again, I'll let you know.
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POSTS ON ENOCH BY ALAMO GIRL 28-29 SEP 2010:
Thank you so much for your encouragements, dear SonOfDarkSkies!
So, IMHO, you'd be missing a lot by using only the Charles translation. That said, I have not yet read the 2004 translations. They may be even better than Isaac's but the great advantage of Charlesworth's is that Enoch is set in context with many other ancient manuscripts which were informative in their day. Among these are Enoch II and Enoch III.
Thank you for your question!
By the way, Bible scholars work on the presumption that prophesy cannot occur. Thus when they find a reference to a verifiable bit of history, they date the manuscript after that date.
They did that with the book of Enoch which they presumed was written after Herod because it evidently referred to him and more importantly, to Jesus Christ. The view is clear in Laurence's translation.
Then they found Enoch in the Dead Sea Scrolls and - lo and behold - fragments of copies of the book carbon-dated as far back as 200 B.C. (No telling how old the original was.)
In sum, Enoch has been inconvenient to many and for different reasons.
Although it is quoted directly and indirectly in the New Testament, which would normally result in a book being added to the canon, the Church found the apocalyptic references intolerable at the time.
To the Jews, even though Enoch was in wide currency before Christ was enfleshed, to continue to embrace the manuscript would require accepting Christ as the Messiah which would disagree with what the sages believed the Messiah should be like.
To the Bible scholars of the present age, the book makes their secular approach to ancient manuscripts - as if they wanted to be seen as scientists, methodological naturalists - foolish.
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2578704/posts?page=8869#8869
To: Natural Law
****There are at least 33,000 points of disagreement or there wouldn’t need to be 33,000 denominations, give or take.*****
Time to put that lie away
“Due to popular request and to the ongoing distortion of figures from uninformed Roman Catholic apologists writing on this issue, I am posting the following excerpt from my forthcoming book, Upon This Slippery Rock (Calvary Press, 2002).
Throughout this book we have examined the Roman Catholic apologist’s primary argument against sola Scriptura and Protestantism; namely, that sola Scriptura produces doctrinal anarchy as is witnessed in the 25,000 Protestant denominations extant today. We have all along assumed the soundness of the premise that in fact there are 25,000 Protestant denominations; and we have shown that—even if this figure is correct—the Roman Catholic argument falls to the ground since it compares apples to oranges. We have just one more little detail to address before we can close; namely, the correctness of the infamous 25,000-Protestant-denominations figure itself.
When this figure first surfaced among Roman Catholic apologists, it started at 20,000 Protestant denominations, grew to 23,000 Protestant denominations, then to 25,000 Protestant denominations. More recently, that figure has been inflated to 28,000, to over 32,000. These days, many Roman Catholic apologists feel content simply to calculate a daily rate of growth (based on their previous adherence to the original benchmark figure of 20,000) that they can then use as a basis for projecting just how many Protestant denominations there were, or will be, in any given year. But just where does this figure originate?
I have posed this question over and over again to many different Roman Catholic apologists, none of whom were able to verify the source with certainty. In most cases, one Roman Catholic apologist would claim he obtained the figure from another Roman Catholic apologist. When I would ask the latter Roman Catholic apologist about the figure, it was not uncommon for that apologist to point to the former apologist as his source for the figure, creating a circle with no actual beginning. I have long suspected that, whatever the source might be, the words “denomination” and “Protestant” were being defined in a way that most of us would reject.
I have only recently been able to locate the source of this figure. I say the source because in fact there is only one source that mentions this figure independently. All other secondary sources (to which Roman Catholics sometimes make appeal) ultimately cite the same original source. That source is David A. Barrett’s World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World A.D. 1900—2000 (ed. David A. Barrett; New York: Oxford University Press, 1982). This work is both comprehensive and painstakingly detailed; and its contents are quite enlightening. However, the reader who turns to this work for validation of the Roman Catholic 25,000-Protestant-denomination argument will be sadly disappointed. What follows is a synopsis of what Barrett’s work in this area really says.
First, Barrett, writing in 1982, does indeed cite a figure of 20,780 denominations in 1980, and projects that there would be as many as 22,190 denominations by 1985. This represents an increase of approximately 270 new denominations each year (Barrett, 17). What the Roman Catholic who cites this figure does not tell us (most likely because he does not know) is that most of these denominations are non-Protestant.
Barrett identifies seven major ecclesiastical “blocs” under which these 22,190 distinct denominations fall (Barrett, 14-15): (1) Roman Catholicism, which accounts for 223 denominations; (2) Protestant, which accounts for 8,196 denominations; (3) Orthodox, which accounts for 580 denominations; (4) Non-White Indigenous, which accounts for 10,956 denominations; (5) Anglican, which accounts for 240 denominations; (6) Marginal Protestant, which includes Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, New Age groups, and all cults (Barrett, 14), and which accounts for 1,490 denominations; and (7) Catholic (Non-Roman), which accounts for 504 denominations.
According to Barrett’s calculations, there are 8,196 denominations within Protestantism—not 25,000 as Roman Catholic apologists so cavalierly and carelessly claim. Barrett is also quick to point out that one cannot simply assume that this number will continue to grow each year; hence, the typical Roman Catholic projection of an annual increase in this number is simply not a given. Yet even this figure is misleading; for it is clear that Barrett defines “distinct denominations” as any group that might have a slightly different emphasis than another group (such as the difference between a Baptist church that emphasizes hymns, and another Baptist church that emphasizes praise music).
No doubt the same Roman Catholic apologists who so gleefully cite the erroneous 25,000-denominations figure, and who might with just as much glee cite the revised 8,196-denominations figure, would reel at the notion that there might actually be 223 distinct denominations within Roman Catholicism! Yet that is precisely the number that Barrett cites for Roman Catholicism. Moreover, Barrett indicates in the case of Roman Catholicism that even this number can be broken down further to produce 2,942 separate “denominations”—and that was only in 1970! In that same year there were only 3,294 Protestant denominations; a difference of only 352 denominations. If we were to use the Roman Catholic apologist’s method to “project” a figure for the current day, we could no doubt postulate a number upwards of 8,000 Roman Catholic denominations today! Hence, if Roman Catholic apologists want to argue that Protestantism is splintered into 8,196 “bickering” denominations, then they must just as readily admit that their own ecclesial system is splintered into at least 2,942 bickering denominations (possibly as many as 8,000). If, on the other hand, they would rather claim that among those 2,942+ (perhaps 8,000?) Roman Catholic denominations there is “unity,” then they can have no objection to the notion that among the 8,196 Protestant denominations there is also unity.
In reality, Barrett indicates that what he means by “denomination” is any ecclesial body that retains a “jurisdiction” (i.e., semi-autonomy). As an example, Baptist denominations comprise approximately 321 of the total Protestant figure. Yet the lion’s share of Baptist denominations are independent, making them (in Barrett’s calculation) separate denominations. In other words, if there are ten Independent Baptist churches in a given city, even though all of them are identical in belief and practice, each one is counted as a separate denomination due to its autonomy in jurisdiction. This same principle applies to all independent or semi-independent denominations. And even beyond this, all Independent Baptist denominations are counted separately from all other Baptist denominations, even though there might not be a dime’s worth of difference among them. The same principle is operative in Barrett’s count of Roman Catholic denominations. He cites 194 Latin-rite denominations in 1970, by which Barrett means separate jurisdictions (or diocese). Again, a distinction is made on the basis of jurisdiction, rather than differing beliefs and practices.
However Barrett has defined “denomination,” it is clear that he does not think of these as major distinctions; for that is something he reserves for another category. In addition to the seven major ecclesiastical “blocs” (mentioned above), Barrett breaks down each of these traditions into smaller units that might have significant differences (what he calls “major ecclesiastical traditions,” and what we might normally call a true denomination) (Barrett, 14). Referring again to our seven major ecclesiastical “blocs” (mentioned above, but this time in reverse order): For (1) Catholic (Non-Roman), there are four traditions, including Catholic Apostolic, Reformed Catholic, Old Catholic, and Conservative Catholic; for (2) Marginal Protestants, there are six traditions; for (3) Anglican, there are six traditions; for (4) Non-White Indigenous, which encompasses third-world peoples (among whom can be found traces of Christianity mixed with the major tenets of their indigenous pagan religions), there are twenty traditions, including a branch of Reformed Catholic and a branch of Conservative Catholic; for (5) Orthodox, there are nineteen traditions; for (6) Protestant, there are twenty-one traditions; and for (7) Roman Catholic, there are sixteen traditions, including Latin-rite local, Latin-rite catholic, Latin/Eastern-rite local, Latin/Eastern-rite catholic, Syro-Malabarese, Ukrainian, Romanian, Maronite, Melkite, Chaldean, Ruthenian, Hungarian, plural Oriental rites, Syro-Malankarese, Slovak, and Coptic. It is important to note here that Barrett places these sixteen Roman Catholic traditions (i.e., true denominations) on the very same level as the twenty-one Protestant traditions (i.e., true denominations). In other words, the true count of real denominations within Protestantism is twenty-one, whereas the true count of real denominations within Roman Catholic is sixteen. Combined with the other major ecclesiastical blocs, that puts the total number of actual denominations in the world at ninety-two—obviously nowhere near the 23,000 or 25,000 figure that Roman Catholic apologists constantly assert—and that figure of ninety-two denominations includes the sixteen denominations of Roman Catholicism (Barrett, 15)! Barrett goes on to note that this figure includes all denominations with a membership of over 100,000. There are an additional sixty-four denominations worldwide, distributed among the seven major ecclesiastical blocs.
As we have shown, the larger figures mentioned earlier (8,196 Protestant denominations and perhaps as many as 8,000 Roman Catholic denominations) are based on jurisdiction rather than differing beliefs and practice. Obviously, neither of those figures represents a true denominational distinction. Hence, Barrett’s broader category (which we have labeled true denominations) of twenty-one Protestant denominations and sixteen Roman Catholic denominations represents a much more realistic calculation.
Moreover, Barrett later compares Roman Catholicism to Evangelicalism, which is a considerably smaller subset of Protestantism (so far as the number of denominations is concerned), and which is really the true category for those who hold to sola Scriptura (most Protestant denominations today, being liberal denominations and thereby dismissing the authority of the Bible, do not hold to sola Scriptura, except perhaps as a formality). Any comparison that the Roman Catholic apologist would like to make between sola Scriptura as the guiding principle of authority, and Rome as the guiding principle of authority (which we have demonstrated earlier is a false comparison in any case), needs to compare true sola Scriptura churches (i.e., Evangelicals) to Rome, rather than all Protestant churches to Rome. An Evangelical, as defined by Barrett, is someone who is characterized by (1) a personal conversion experience, (2) a reliance upon the Bible as the sole basis for faith and living, (3) an emphasis on evangelism, and (4) a conservative theology (Barrett, 71). Interestingly, when discussing Evangelicals Barrett provides no breakdown, but rather treats them as one homogeneous group. However, when he addresses Roman Catholics on the very same page, he breaks them down into four major groups: (1) Catholic Pentecostals (Roman Catholics involved in the organized Catholic Charismatic Renewal); (2) Christo-Pagans (Latin American Roman Catholics who combine folk-Catholicism with traditional Amerindian paganism); (3) Evangelical Catholics (Roman Catholics who also regard themselves as Evangelicals); and (4) Spiritist Catholics (Roman Catholics who are active in organized high or low spiritism, including syncretistic spirit-possession cults). And of course, we all know that this list can be supplemented by distinctions between moderate Roman Catholics (represented by almost all Roman Catholic scholars), Conservative Roman Catholics (represented by Scott Hahn and most Roman Catholic apologists), Traditionalist Roman Catholics (represented by apologist Gerry Matatics), and Sedevacantist Roman Catholics (those who believe the chair of Peter is currently vacant).
In any case, once we inquire into the source of the infamous 25,000-Protestant-denomination figure one point becomes crystal clear. Whenever and at whatever point Barrett compares true denominations and differences among either Protestants or Evangelicals to those of Roman Catholicism, Roman Catholicism emerges almost as splintered as Protestantism, and even more splintered than Evangelicalism. That levels the playing field significantly. Whatever charge of “doctrinal chaos” Roman Catholic apologists wish to level against Protestantism may be leveled with equal force—and perhaps even greater force—against the doctrinal chaos of Roman Catholicism. Obviously, the Roman Catholic apologist can take little comfort in the fact that he has only sixteen denominations while Protestantism has twenty-one; and he can take even less comfort in the fact that while Evangelicalism has no divisional breakdown, Roman Catholicism has at least four major divisions.
If the Roman Catholic apologist wants instead to cite 8,196 idiosyncrasies within Protestantism, then he must be willing to compare that figure to at least 2,942 (perhaps upwards of 8,000 these days) idiosyncrasies within Roman Catholicism. In any case, he cannot compare the one ecclesial tradition of Roman Catholicism to 25,000, 8,196, or even twenty-one Protestant denominations; for Barrett places Roman Catholicism (as a single ecclesial tradition) on the same level as Protestantism (as a single ecclesial tradition).
In short, Roman Catholic apologists have hurriedly, carelessly—and, as a result, irresponsibly—glanced at Barrett’s work, found a large number (22,189), and arrived at all sorts of absurdities that Barrett never concluded. One can only hope that, upon reading this critique, Roman Catholic apologists will finally put this argument to bed. The more likely scenario, however, is that the death of this argument will come about only when Evangelicals consistently point out this error—and correct it—each time it is raised by a Roman Catholic apologist. Sooner or later they will grow weary of the embarrassment that accompanies citing erroneous figures in a public forum.”
Eric Svendsen
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And my point is, again, how does one know if one is not following the brighest angel if one rejects the Church of Jesus on earth?
I don't recall your putting it that way, but now will respond to your question as stated.
First, we Christians are to follow God Himself - not angels, mortals, organizations, etc.
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. – I John 1:15
[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:1-9
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:27
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Corinthians 6:19
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:4-5
And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. - Revelation 22:8-9
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Galatians 5:22-23
If a man loves his wife and she wants the bedroom painted blue, he will do his best to see it done. And if he wants fried catfish, she will do her best to master that skill. Likewise between parents and children, lovers, friends and so on.
Indeed, when a person loves another deeply, he can no longer say whether he likes museums because she does or he does – or whether he likes cheeseburgers because she does or he does.
So if we want what God wants it is because we love Him. And thereby, we don't need to "sweat the details."
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:35-40
It would also entail rejoicing in mercy, immersing ourselves in it because He wants it:
But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. – Matthew 12:7
Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. – Matthew 5:7
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. – Revelation 21:1-7
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To: MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; investigateworld; betty boop; HarleyD; Iscool
[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. – Romans 8:1
Compare that to Jim Jones and Applewhite and David Koresh whose followers literally died with them. And compare that to L.Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith.
Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. - Matthew 22:42
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. - Matthew 16:15-18
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. – Jude 9
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. – Matt 4:7
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. – Matt 4:10
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63
You: Oh boy. Our imitation of Christ involves giving up of ourselves, but we do need to sweat the details. If we worship the Mormon God, for instance, will the Christian God understand that we actually meant well, so please don't hold it against us?
Also, you give the Church the glory for defining the Trinity. That glory belongs to God. He revealed that Truth in Scripture:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - Matthew 28:19
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9
The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. – Psalms 12:6-7
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. - Isaiah 55:11
you: I have no idea what you mean here.
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:7-8
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To: Cronos; HarleyD; metmom
It is deeply disturbing to me whenever a Catholic around here claims that the Catholic Church wrote the Scriptures and so forth - because such a boast appropriates glory which belongs to God. Moreover, the boast subordinates the Scriptures to the Catholic Church as the author/creator of them.
The oracles are God's and it is He who commits those oracles to safekeeping by His own chosen people.
As every man hath received the gift, [even so] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. - I Peter 4:10-11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. - Isaiah 55:11
Perhaps the Catholics so boasting believe they are justified on belief that members of the Catholic Church alone comprise the body of Christ. But even if they were right (and they are not) Christ Himself is the head of His body, the church, and surely all glory for a manuscript goes to its author, his mind, not his fingers, elbows and toes.
And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. - Ephesians 1:22-23
But the word of God grew and multiplied. – Acts 12:21-24
This is a terrible, terrible insult to the Blood of Christ.
And for that reason I never allow an atheist or agnostic to control the rules of engagement, including the dictionary – and I always begin my reply with my testimony:
I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. – John 10:14-15
[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. – John 14:17
Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. – John 8:55
A child’s faith is simple, trusting, and it is both treasured and protected by God.
And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. – Matt 18:16
I shall address my three part reply to posters on both sides 50/50.
1. We should follow the Scripture on choosing when to engage and when to disengage a debate.
To paraphrase the following passage, try not to answer foolish claims or questions. It is better to ignore them than to take them seriously.
And limit our attempts to correct another poster’s heresy to two. If he won’t hear us after the second try, just walk away, let God deal with him.
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. – Titus 3:9-11
God’s justice is perfectly balanced. We each individually build the scales whereby we will each be individually weighed. The way we treat other posters is the way God will treat us.
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: - Luke 6:37
Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. – Matt 5:7
Never hold a grudge for the way a poster has treated us. For if we refuse to forgive others, God will not hear our prayers. Emphasis mine.
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. - Matthew 6:5-15
And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. – Mark 11:24-26
We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are. To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls; to thee we give our homes, our families, our country."
In the first place, I cannot see how a Christian can give away that which he does not own.
The earth [is] the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. – Psalms 24:1
I see consecrating as roughly the equivalent of dedicating, submitting or yielding for a sacred purpose. Certainly the Israelis were to submit to Moses’ leading. Korah and company were held to account for rebelling against Moses (Numbers 16.)
And wives are to submit themselves to their own husbands. That of course does not mean that a wife is to submit herself to men who are not her husband.
Slaves are to submit to their masters, children to the parents, youngers to elders and so on.
And I do perceive that the Catholic Church has carried on with the tradition of submission within the ranks of the members of the Catholic Church. The members are expected to submit to dogma, doctrine, authorities in a hierarchy whether in the flesh or not, etc.
So the submitting to Mary is not surprising to an outsider looking in. But the giving away part is disturbing.
Control is not yielded in consecration - it is in giving. Also, personal responsibility is preserved in consecration.
Obviously no person “owns” his own country such that he could give it to Mary. Nor does he own his wife or his children and so on. Jeepers, he doesn’t even own himself.
God “owns” all that there is – every one and every thing. During our mortal life, we are merely stewards of His property – most particularly our own hearts, minds, souls and bodies.
And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, [thou] good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine. His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. – Matthew 25:19-30
In the context of this devotion, the exchanger would be Mary. But it could also be a Bishop, priest, minister, preacher, teacher, etc. Some exchangers I perceive as perilous – e.g. Mohammed - some obviously so – e.g. Jim Jones.
As a bakery shop kid, I have no exchangers. I consecrate all that I am to God Himself:
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:35-40
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:27
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. – John 10:3-5