Posted on 08/15/2004 7:09:04 PM PDT by TheStickman
Question: Are the Greek Orthodox OLD CALENDAR Churches in communion with Rome?
Wife and I are driving each other crazy over this one. Any one know or have a link that would help?
Many thanks:)
Various so-called Greek Catholic churches, Uniates, are not Orthodox churches, Alexandria and similar monophysite, the Maronite Church and so on, are in communion with Rome since the 15th century (following the so-called "re-union" in Florence).
Orthodox Churches are those churches that are in communion with the See of Constantiople. Others are either heretic churches that broke off early in Christian history, or those that joined the Roman Carholic Church at a later date by accepting Latin theological innovations.
Actually "Greek Old Calendar Churches" could refer to the Greeks who went into schism from the Church of Greece over the adoption of the New Calendar. In which case, they are certainly not in communion with Rome as the objection to the New Calendar was in part that it was adopted to move the feasts of the Orthodox to coincide with those of heretics (that is papists).
The Greek Orthodox old calendar church being referred to is one that broke from the (New Calendar)Greek Orthodox over the changing of the calendar.
Thank you for the clarification on communion with Rome.
Unfortunately there seems to be alot of misinformation over just who is in communion with Rome. Add to that people not paying close attention to what I'm telling them and it's very frustrating.
"Add to that people not paying close attention to what I'm telling them and it's very frustrating."
Amen to that!!!
Old Calendar is used by the Church of Russia, Serbia and Jerusalem, because it is the only Calendar by which Pascha is fixed, and all Orthodox Churches celebrate Pascha based on the Old Calendar, even if they use the New Calendar for other fixed observances.
Here is the list of Autocephalous Orthodox Churches [Churches with their own Patriarch]
Autonomous Orthodox Churches (Self-governing, aka Metropolias)
[Source: Wikipedia]
Some Churches, such a the "Montenegrin," "Macedonian," or "Belorussian" Orthodox churches are not in communion with any other and even do not recognize each other.
All other Eastern-rite churches (Maronite, Ukrainian Greek-Catholic, Ruthenian, etc.) are Eastern-rite churches (more or less) in communion with the Vatican.
To go off on a little tangent here, on my way down to check out St. Vincent Ferrer Church in NYC (truly magnificent), we drove by the Ukranian Catholic Church in my neighborhood, with the ubiquitous Orthodox Church acrosss the street. What I found odd was that the Catholic one was round and looked very "Orthodox" (or at least my idea of it), and the Orthodox one was simple, brick, and somehwat Protestant looking, except for the onion dome on top. Just thought that was interesting for no particular reason. Still would like to visit both.
Just a point of information. The Maronite Catholic Church has never separated from Rome. They are one of only two Eastern Catholic Rite churches that have maintained fidelity to the Magisterium from the very beginning.
Thanks for the info. I thought that the Maronite church is mentioned in the Council of Florence, but I will double check.
Not sure, maybe Destro would know. When the Calendar issue came about, some Greek clergy were excommunicated for not following the official line. It is my understanding that Old Calendarists function within the Greek Church.
Not sure eiether - I am sure some hold outs exists as with the ROCOR.
What (Who) are the Eastern Catholic Churches?
As early as the beginning of the 2nd century A.D. the famous Syrian bishop, Ignatius of Antioch, called the Christian Church “Catholic,” meaning, “Universal.” This was because (as the Greek root of that word implies) Christians were in unity all over the then known world. This unity lasted until the heresies of the 4th and 5th centuries began ripping apart the fabric of the Church.
During her early missionary expansion around the Mediterranean and into Persia and even into China and India, the Church adapted to the languages, customs, thought patterns and spiritualities of the areas in which she took root. Thus, while the early Catholic Churches agreed on the set of beliefs stated in the Creeds and celebrated in her diverse liturgies, these Churches appeared different in their outward expressions. Christians in Antioch celebrated the faith differently from those in Rome, and these in turn differed from Christians in Alexandria and the Kerala Coast of India and other places. Yet all were Churches of the Universal Catholic Church, a “Communion” of Churches. By Communion is meant here the bonds of faith and Christian love and mutual respect.
The 5th century was not the only time that Christians separated from mutual communion. The 11th century saw the “last straw” in a separation between Latin West and Greek-Byzantine East. This estrangement preceded the watershed date of 1054 A.D., and its final effect took place well afterwards in the destruction of Constantinople, home of the Byzantine Church. “Orthodox” became a formal name of the majority of Eastern Christians.
Between the Syrian, Egyptian, Persian, Armenian and Indian Churches that separated in the 5th century and the Byzantines in the 11th, the Second Millennium was a time when the majority of the East was estranged from Rome.
The only exceptions are the Maronite Catholics of the Middle East and the Italo-Albanian Greek-Byzantine Catholics of southern Italy. Both Churches claim never to have broken their communion with the See of Rome.
Beginning in the 16th century and even into the 20th, and for various reasons, groups of these separated Christians decided to re-establish communion with Rome. They were certainly not the majority within their individual Churches, but they were significant. These are what are today known as the Eastern Catholic Churches. Thus, all but the Maronites and the Italo-Albanians have Orthodox counterpart Churches.
(See Chapter 7 of CYT, especially the diagrams on pp. 90 & 98.)
That could explain something- which is that my Greek Orthodox OC wedding took place in a small OC Russian Orthodox church in Queens, NY. I do know that some negotiating took place, but that they were the only ones with (in the eyes of this Greek O.C. group) a church with the same beliefs (for lack of a better explanation). Keep in mind this is NY, and there are *plenty* of Greek and Russian Orthodox churches. Out of all of them, this particular Russian one was the only one "qualified". BTW this was done because the Greek church was just a very small outbuilding that could barely fit 20 people.
I do have one comment: you write
The current Latin Church has deviated from the faith held by all Christianityh (regardless of rites of worship), as defined by the Seven Ecumenical Councils. If Maronite Catholics claim unbroken communion with Rome, I understand that to mean that the Maronites left the Communion of the other four Patriarchs and went with the Patriarch of Rome into schism.
The question is what makes you different from the Maronite Orthodox Church? Theology? Do you profess Filioque, accept Immaculate Conception and papal infallibility, or only some and not all?
Orthodox Churches all share the same theology to which, at one time, your church and Old Rome used to subscribe.
OC will naturally prefer to stick with other OC communities as a matter of preference and taste. But it is important to understand that the manner of worship is something that does change even in the Orthodox Church, but the faith is not subject to modernisms. Some people obviously confuse the manner of worship, beards and even the calendar as part of Church teachings whereas they have not been addressed by the seven Ecumenical Councils.
That being said, I am not opposed to changes as long as one can demonstrate that there is a need for them. Keeping up with the times and the Joneses is not sufficient reason to change. Show me that it is broken or wrong and we shall all change it. As far as I know, beards are biblical and the Old Calendar is still the only calendar used for the most important Christian event - Pascha - for all. All Orthodox Churches celebrate Easter on the same (Old Calendar) date, regardless of what calendar they use for fixed events. So, then, if the Calendar is not broken or insufficient, why change it?
The Gregorian Calendar was introduced by the Ecumenical Patriarch in the 1920’s. He was a Freemason. Of all the changes he suggested (civilian attire for priests, clean shaven, etc.) the only change accepted by the partial Synod was the New Calendar. It was not needed, it is not theologically justified, and the most Orthodox of the Orthodox - Russia and Serbia - refuse it and justifiably so. Orthodoxy is not for those who like change for the sake of change. The unchanging character of our faith is reflected in the Church’s ability to be independent of fashion and trends, true yesterday, today and tomorrow.
This is a little off topic, but when does Christmas switch over to what is January 8th on the new calender? Isn't that supposed to be happening soon?
The Maronite Church professes the same faith and beliefs of the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. It also administers the 7 Sacraments instituted by Christ, and obeys all the moral and dogmatic norms issued by our Holy Father the Pope, the successor of Saint Peter in the Vatican. The liturgy, itself, is known as the Syriac liturgy of Antioch, ascribed to St. James the Less, "brother of the Lord", Apostle and first Bishop of Jerusalem. The ritual formulation expresses the spirit of Eastern monasticism. The liturgical language used in the Maronite Mass is Syriac-Aramaic, the language spoken by Christ. Incense is used during the Liturgy to signify that our prayers go heavenward to God as the sweet-smelling smoke of incense rises up. In the Liturgy, the words of consecration are traditionally chanted in Aramaic, the same language our Lord spoke. Communion is received by intinction, after the priest dips the Host in the Chalice. This is the only form prescribed for reception of the Body and Blood of Christ in the Maronite Church. Maronites cultivate profound adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, seeing in the Holy Eucharist the Risen Christ who sent to us the Sanctifying Spirit. They are also deeply devoted to Mary, The Mother of the Light, hailing her strength and fidelity in the title of "Cedar of Lebanon."
went with the Patriarch of Rome into schism
I believe you have that backwards. The Orthodox churches are in schism. Christ left His church to one person, not a group of churches.
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