SSPX Agreement Reneged on by Lefebvre

Traditional Catholic Website ^ | 25 August 2004 | The Vatican

[sempertrad]

Outside the Church, there is no salvation.

Amen!

But sadly, Mershon, how many Catholics today do you think know this and believe it? If you're honest, you'll admit there probably aren't many. Whose fault is this? How many times in the last 40 years has this teaching been impressed upon us and the world at large? Sure, we may hear the Pope (or prelate or priest) say or write these words, but it's always immediately followed by some sort of clause that other faiths are "instrumental" or some such thing. This teaching is too important to be watered down in the name of Ecumenism. But it has. It's time to face this.

I really understand and see many of the points of the SSPX crowd, but doing battle WITHIN the Church is much more meritorious than doing it from the outside.

But it was precisely for battling against error that Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX received the unjust (and, therefore, bogus) "excommunication."

[Mershon]

And your "apologetic" are exactly why, after attending an SSPX chapel exactly once, I will never go back. Great sermon. Great Mass. But it turns out people like you.

There is no reason to even argue with your lack of reasoning. You call the Novus Ordo church a new religion and state you do not have to "obey" your bishop by attending a Mass authorized by him.

Luther is quite proud. And by the way, even Archbishop Lefebvre would not recognize the Catholicism in your reasoning.

You won't accuse the Pope of heresy, but you hold it in your heart and it is manifest in your words for all to see. "I pray that they all come to their sense and begin to hold & teach the Catholic Faith."

The thing speaks for itself. And how many papal encyclicals (of Pope JPII) have you read?

[Mershon]

"Go away, then."

And to think I actually wanted to practice "ecumenism" with people like this? How silly of me...

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. The Church is visible. I don't see you in it. You have your own personal form of "Church."

[Mershon]

"Whose fault is this?"

Whose place is it to judge the Pope or the Bishops? God! Not yours. Read the Fathers of the Church--quite traditional actually.

You can be scandalized all you want, but that will never get me outside the confines of the visible Church. The silly thing is, this dogma applies MORE to you and me.

It matters not how many things you seek scandal in (which is gravely sinful, by the way), I am not going to leave the Church. Cry babies and people who lack guts and fortitude leave the Church 'cause their feelings get hurt. Cowards would be the word I would use.

[sempertrad]

after attending an SSPX chapel exactly once, I will never go back. Great sermon. Great Mass. But it turns out people like you.

You base your decision on where to hear mass on who shares the pews with you? Don't you think that's a tad ridiculous? And what, after this one SSPX Mass you had an opportunity to determine that everyone there was exactly like this poster? And even if one guy was, that's enough to justify never going back to a "great Mass" where you'll hear another "great sermon?"

[latae sententiae]

after attending an SSPX chapel exactly once, I will never go back. Great sermon. Great Mass. But it turns out people like you.

I hope you confessed this.

There is no reason to even argue with your lack of reasoning. You call the Novus Ordo church a new religion and state you do not have to "obey" your bishop by attending a Mass authorized by him.

That's correct. I am not obligated to participate in my own damnation, and for this reason, I can never be legitimately required to go to a Nevus Ordo Mass.

Luther is quite proud. And by the way, even Archbishop Lefebvre would not recognize the Catholicism in your reasoning.

Ah, there it is. The inevitable comparrision to Luther. What took you so long?

You won't accuse the Pope of heresy, but you hold it in your heart

...and you think I'm arrogant.

and it is manifest in your words for all to see. "I pray that they all come to their sense and begin to hold & teach the Catholic Faith."

I want the Pope to stop kissing Korans, teaching that the Jews do not need Christ, and that there might be a Hell, but that it's probably empty. There are not unreasonable requests (arethey?)

And how many papal encyclicals (of Pope JPII) have you read?

I don't know. A few. Why?

[Mershon]

"I want the Pope to stop kissing Korans, teaching that the Jews do not need Christ, and that there might be a Hell, but that it's probably empty. There are not unreasonable requests (arethey?)"

Funny, I didn't know any of these things were authorized by official Church teaching. Are they? I have read a lot and never seen them defined as such.

In other words, you take scandal and judge the Pope. Both are grave matter. You leave the bosom of the Church because the Pope does things you don't agree with that scandalize you.

Go cry to your mommy. What a bunch of big babies on this board. The Pope and others sin. I'm so scandalized. Boo hoo hoo.

[sitetest]

Deaer Mershon,

"The Baltimore Catechism is used by many of us "post-Conciliar" indult folks."

The Baltimore Catechism is used by many of us evil neoCatholic Novus Ordoites, too.

In my case, with the knowledge, approval, and enthusiastic support of my evil neoCatholic Novus Ordoite pastor.


sitetest

[sitetest]

Dear Mershon,

"I often wonder what my Protestant fundie friends and the strident SSPX adherents would argue about if they were in a room together."

Actually, we used to have a very erudite conservative, evangelical Protestant minister here who went by the name drstevej. He, excellent Protestant that he was, firmly believed that the SSPX adherents and sympathizers were more Catholic than the pope.


sitetest

[Mershon]

No. It is not just one poster. It is nearly every SSPX adherent I have tried to have a theological conversation with. Root sin of pride expressed in haughtiness and self love. I know it well. Perhaps it is caused by the lack of grace from so many invalid confessions. I don't know. I just know that the adherents I have encountered appear to be unbalanced.

[Dominick]

"Go away, then."

And to think I actually wanted to practice "ecumenism" with people like this? How silly of me...

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. The Church is visible. I don't see you in it. You have your own personal form of "Church."

Unjust or not, the Pope's pronouncements on the status of the SSPX are binding. We can also see the Christian character in the SSPX that was referred to by Ratzinger.

[pascendi]

You sure judge a lot of things that are far beyond your ability to know.

You've been presented with nothing but level headed, theologically tight arguments. But you would determine the truth by other people's actions.

[Dominick]

Yes, and I do recognize its validity. So does the SSPX.

That's correct. I am not obligated to participate in my own damnation, and for this reason, I can never be legitimately required to go to a Nevus Ordo Mass.

Proving once again the SSPX can say it is valid and confects the Body of Christ, and participates in it's own Damnation at the same time.

1 COR 27-31
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.
28 A person should examine himself, 13 and so eat the bread and drink the cup.

SO if the Body of Christ confected at a Novus Ordo is leading to your damnation, you better not take Communion at any Mass.

Archbishop Lefebvre would not recognize the Catholicism in your reasoning.

Why would he, he left the Church and after that time he was no longer Catholic. His problems were picking and choosing the Pronouncements of Rome to follow, just like any Modernist would. In another thread I accuses the SSPX of modernism for this reason.

[Dominick]

You've been presented with nothing but level headed, theologically tight arguments.

Anything but theologically tight. One example, "the Pope's pronouncements are invalid because I consider them unjust?"

It may be level headed, but it is covered by a tinfoil hat.

[pascendi]

Because of you, I have put the Novus Ordo church further from myself. I refuse to even listen to you or your kind. I was often willing to benevolently engage my NeoCatholic brethren, but as time has gone by, I am less willing to do so, because of their arrogance, self righteousness, hypocracy... but most of all, blindness. It's an inconceivable blindness that cannot even readily admit the obvious, but worse yet, turns on the most innocent parties and blames them for their own friggen shortcomings. To top it all off, the theological landscape is a virtual wasteland of ignorance.

Because of you personally and because of every person like you, I will no longer come in close proximity to your liberal Catholicism, no longer listen to it, try to understand it, or give it's diabolic disorientedness one more ounce of my time or thought, even though the good intent was mine.

[Dominick]

NeoCatholic brethren,

Thats Roman Catholic, and yes we know. It is the tragedy of the SSPX that such a great organization can fall so far.

Your return can be affected by a good confession to any INCARDIATED Priest. None of the SSPX Priests you follow are incardiated, so that won't work.

Because of you personally and because of every person like you,

It saddens me that the Truth that I repeat from the Pope drives you away, but that has to be your chouce.

[pascendi]

"Your return can be affected by a good confession to any INCARDIATED Priest. None of the SSPX Priests you follow are incardiated, so that won't work."

I don't have an SSPX priest. I go to the indult. I would have said that, like Mershon, you sure assume lots of stuff... except for the fact that I already told you I attend the indult.

"It saddens me that the Truth that I repeat from the Pope drives you away, but that has to be your chouce."

Uh... which truth you told me that you pulled out of your tiara?

Whatever. At any rate, I wasn't really serious. I thought I would just see what it felt like to use the emotional argument where, instead of judging things on principle and doctrine, you look at other people and try to determine the truth by judging them. You determine that you don't like them, and so you make an irrational decision concerning Catholic truth based on emotions.

It was fun, but I like my old method better. It works to actually determine the truth.

[Dominick]

I go to the indult. I would have said that, like Mershon, you sure assume lots of stuff... except for the fact that I already told you I attend the indult.

The separation of the Tridentine and the SSPX in this discussion is important. Most of my comments are directed at the SSPX claiming virtue in the dissent. Another issue is the validity of the Novus Ordo, which is not that same as the liturgical abuses and the scandals in the Church.

The scandals are not caused by the Novus Ordo, or the lack of Indult Masses. The scandals are caused by men with evil designs, who see an easy living in the Church. Another problem is the lack of accountability that the Church allowed it's pastors. The accountability was to God, not to bean counters.

You have used this bipolar method twice in this thread. That is enough.

[pascendi]

"That is enough."

Yes, your Holiness.

[Dominick]

You have crossed into the realm of the trolls.

It causes me to disbelieve any of your your previous posts.