Posted on 09/02/2004 7:59:20 PM PDT by ahadams2
I think you're spot on w/ your analysis
at the same time, this could just be a delaying tactic that allows the heat generated by Robinson's elevation to die down enough so there is a lack of emphasis on this issue come next GC
It's been my impression that originally the proponents of Robinson's election figured exactly what you've stated; there'd be a lot of heat initially, just like over women's ordination, and then it would die down. But they completely miscalculated. They saw this as a "rights" issue; women had a "right" to be ordained, it came to pass, a furor ensued, the furor died down, and now non-chaste homosexuals have a "right" to be ordained, it came to pass, etc. Their blind spot is that first, this isn't a question of "rights". No one has a "right" to be ordained. Secondly, women and homosexuals are viewed quite differently by the majority of people in the AC. Women are definitely "born that way", and for a woman to behave as a woman is not sinful, providing that they do so within the bounds of marriage. Not so for homosexuals.
However, the proponents are operating under the concept that homosexuals are "born that way", or at least are operating over a very deep-seated compulsion. And since their sexual orientation is reputedly part of their nature, they have a right to act according to their nature without being considerd sinful. However, it seems to me that Jesus tells everyone that everyone's nature is sinful; that if you behave according to your nature, you'll inevitably sin, and you therefore must behave according to God's laws and not your own nature.
God does love us whether we sin or not. But he tells us that for our own salvation, we must become aware of our sinful ways, repent of our sins, and stop sinning. That's easier for some than others. But in now wise are we to say, "this is my nature, so therefore it's not a sin".
And when the rest of the AC essentially held the above viewpoint, they got caught unprepared. They've been fooling themselves and each other for so long with "God doesn't make junk" and "God made me this way, so it must be O.K." that they just didn't realize how different this was from women's ordination.
The AC has to give the ECUSA some time. This kind of thing can't be turned around in a few weeks. It also gives some time for the legal processes regarding properties to wind their way though the courts and let everyone know where they stand.
I do wonder. At some point, I'm betting that there will be a group of proponents that will not repent. The actions of this committee will give leverage to the opponents to either force the proponents out of the ECUSA, or have the opponents create a new American Anglican church that will then become the recognized AC church in America, with the ECUSA declared out of communion.
This is a personal insult I choose to ignore. You also may be right. :-)
On-line conversations lack many of the nuances of face-to-face conversation. My tone was meant to be somewhat jocular; if I failed to communicate that and caused real offense, I sincerely apologize.
...you would be told to shut up, tow the line, or leave the church
I did, in fact, leave the ECUSA. I was faithful to my local parish and even the national church until the Sunday after Gene Robinson's ordination. I hope to return (or join the rightful, orthodox successor Anglican province in the USA) when this grave error is corrected and continue to fight for a high view of Scriptural authority and the ancient Creeds.
Anglican inclusiveness...
If by that you mean the ECUSA version of "inclusiveness", why -- yes - I do agree it is a fiction. And the whole namby-pamby "Love is God" feel-good theology is simply a travesty of God's call to repentance and reconciliation.
My statement had to do with the ability of the Anglican Communion to, with God's help, root out error in its midst without reliance on a central governing authority.
nothing will happen to vicki gene. The senior leadership of ecusa have sold themselves entirely to the idea of following whatever is trendy among the left. They will do nothing other than whine and moan about how it's not their fault.
You wrote "I've got some friends in Wisconsin who strongly disagree, though!"
LOL! yeah but it might be fun to watch them try to convince each other...:-)
You wrote " I wonder what effect the proposals of this report will have on that process?"
short answer: nil.
slightly longer answer: The heretics control approximately 2/3 (or a little more) of all the ecusa dioceses. ecusa will not repent under any circumstances, and I expect frank the heretic's replacement to hold to the same policies he does.
I suspect you're right. The schism has already occurred. I'm just grateful Orthodox American Anglicans will now have a place to stand in the worldwide communion.
When Robinson's election was confirmed at GC 2003, a number of bishops waffled on the central question and stated that they had voted to confirm him on the basis of the Anglican tradition that a Diocese has the right to elect it's own bishop.
Setting aside the obvious issues with this, such action as outlined above removes their ability to waffle on this issue. They'll have to openly declare their intent to remain in or withdraw from the Anglican Communion. I imagine that many of them will fall back once again on the canons and Anglican traditions (autonomy within a national church) rather than address the questions of Christian doctrine and faith. But I wonder if any of them will finally see that the larger issue demands their attention?
Unfortunately I think you're right.
May God have mercy indeed! And may all of us fervently pray that God's truth be known:
Gracious Father, we pray for thy holy Catholic Church. Fill it with all truth, in all truth with all peace. Where it is corrupt, purify it; where it is in error, direct it; where in any thing it is amiss, reform it. Where it is right, strengthen it; where it is in want, provide for it; where it is divided, reunite it; for the sake of Jesus Christ thy Son our Savior. Amen.
--BCP (816)
I felt no response was necessary since I could offer nothing more to clarify my position, and I do not want to anger others or waste words and time. The liturgical reforms of Cranmer and Kind Edward (who was erroneously devout, wandering far from the teachings of Church fathers) destroyed apostolic succession for the Episcopal church. This is evidenced by Episcopal bishops who seek re-ordination from Old Roman Catholic church bishops, or Orthodox bishops, to validate their Episcopal ordinations.
That the Roman Catholic Church has problems, I will not deny. But it will emerge from its problems reinvigorated. Protestant churches slipping further into liberal (heretical) errors will slip into oblivion, since the numbers of adherents will drop to minuscule numbers and fission into small and insignificant cults that slowly disappear. The magisterial authority that resides in the RC church will preserve it until Jesus returns in glory to embrace His bride. He will invite its members to share in the eternal wedding banquet that is celebrated in each Mass and Eucharist.
Protestant churches slipping further into liberal (heretical) errors will slip into oblivion, since the numbers of adherents will drop to minuscule numbers and fission into small and insignificant cults that slowly disappear.
That may very well be the fate of the current ECUSA. May God's will be done!
But God will sustain his truth where it is preached and practiced and I believe that work continues in the wider Anglican Communion and among the faithful remnent in the West.
Should God in his wisdom allow the Anglican Communion to die due to faithlessness, I will repent of my obdurate commitment to it and join the One True Church...
... of Eastern Orthodoxy.
Sorry, I just couldn't resist. :-)
Peace to you, my Catholic brothers and sisters!
To Geezer, Old South, and any newbie comealongs. Welcome! How pleasing it is to see so many relatively new monikers on this board! Why it is practically bursting at the seams!! Post away. Actually, many should read more, post less. Think: what did adams say? think a week, an entire week; what did RonF say? What dit R9 say? This is pretty much the Episcopal position. Episcopalian-Anglicans are the 'Reformed Catholicism'. They took what was wrong, indulgently speaking, and fixed it. We ain't about to swim the Tiber odyssey/ Thames. See. So, are we afloat? Nope ==Reason, Scripture, Tradition--in a real sense. There is nothing better than authentic Anglicanism. I respect the Pope. Period. Anglicanism is a wonderful Truthful Christianity. Now, Who will fight for it? Who will lay down their lives for the Faith? Peace.
Dear Arlin, rest in peace. You were a fine Christian in this life, and you won't be having anymore pain from now on. I hope Heaven has a brass band waiting for you, and put in a good word for all of us, please.
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