Life Teen Liturgy Experiences Changes

The Catholic Sun ^ | September 20, 2004 | Claudia I. Provencio

[Grey Ghost II]

By itself, prayer is not the only solution to conversion. One must work at changing hearts and minds.

I always though God could change hearts and minds. Now I know there a deacon in Texas that does it. I'm sorry I wasted all those years praying to the wrong guy.

[GirlShortstop]

You need not ping me LOTI.
Thank you.

[sinkspur]

I always though God could change hearts and minds

Through human instruments.

Get off the smart-aleck thing, will you?

[Grey Ghost II]

He's right. It's exactly what sinkspur said. There appears to be a contagion going around. Drop in. Make an untrue post. Then asked not to be pinged when confronted with the dishonesty.

[sinkspur]

I didn't ask not to be pinged. What are you talking about? Are you drinking?

[Grey Ghost II]

Get off the smart-aleck thing, will you?

I'll stop the smart-aleck thing if you admit that God, and God alone (that means without any human instrument), has the power to change someone's heart and mind resulting in a conversion. Is it a deal?

[Grey Ghost II]

I didn't ask not to be pinged. Are you drinking?

No I am not drinking. I save up my daily allotment for one good night on the weekend.

I wasn't referring to you. I copied you on the post because I mentioned your name. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Just trying to follow proper protocol.

[sinkspur]

I'll stop the smart-aleck thing if you admit that God, and God alone (that means without any human instrument), has the power to change someone's heart and mind resulting in a conversion. Is it a deal?

No.

So, you think that somebody who's never heard of God or His Church will just, by magic, convert to something he's never heard of?

Conversion is a decision, and even an ignorant person must have a minimal bit of information before he can make a decision.

Where does that information come from, if not from a human agent?

[Land of the Irish]

You need not ping me LOTI.

I think not. You trail these threads, post snide comments and expect to be irreproachable, just as your hero, Black Elk, has demanded of himself.

[AskStPhilomena]

This article may prove useful...
http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20031027.html

[Grey Ghost II]

Where does that information come from, if not from a human agent?

Was there a human agent involved when God gave Moses the Ten Commandments?

[sinkspur]

I don't need verbage from an integrist web site to know that the Novus Ordo closely resembles the Eucharist in the Didache. I've read the Didache, several times. There's also a short passage from it in The Catholic Catechism. You can look it up yourself.

[sinkspur]

Bad analogy. I'm not going to get into scriptural exegesis with you. Try again. Come up with a modern-day conversion where no human agent was involved.

[dsc]

"No one has said that."

Well, if 19 centuries of guidance by the Spiritum Sanctum failed to produce any improvement, then the only possible conclusion is that the guidance of the Spiritum Sanctum is without effect and futile.

If it is not without effect and futile, then 19 centuries of guidance must have produced some results, wouldn't you say?

"it seems to me you're saying that the Masses that the apostles said were somehow junk food to what came along during the following 1000 years."

1. Pork and beans are not junk food; they are plain food.
2. We're not talking about something that just "came along," we're talking about the fruits of the Spiritum Sanctum's guidance.

So,yes--given our premises (that the Church enjoys the guidance of the Spiritum Sanctum and that this guidance is efficacious) it is necessary to conclude that the Mass improved with the passing centuries.

"Somehow I can't grasp that any Mass said by the apostles could not be as holy and true"

No one has said that the Masses said by the apostles were not holy and true. But the Mass also has the functions of supporting faith and strengthening the hearts of the faithful; of inspiring them, of being fruitful ground for vocations, of making converts...many things beyond the absolute minimum of "validity." The Church must be strong medicine to prevail over a culture of death.

And it is here that one runs up against the inferiority of the NO, of ICEL materials, of the whole onslaught of the left that is often referred to as "The Spirit of Vatican II."

It clearly demonstrates the miraculous nature of the Church that even the NO is efficacious...but it is less efficacious. It is as though we agreed to trade the Sistene Chapel for a painting of Roy Orbison done on black velvet.

I mean, yeah, it's a painting, but...

That run-in I had with those two priests over my daughter kneeling for communion brought it into focus. I rather expected that one of them at least would be inclined to discuss the matter. That wasn't the case, but one thing I planned to ask was this: "As a priest, why do you insist that people show **less** reverence for the Body of Christ?"

That's a pretty good weathervane. When someone acting in the name of the Church is insisting on less reverence--whether it's hokey music, a dumbed-down litergy, wreckovated churches, bare-tit masses, or any of the abuses so often cited here--that is the authentic voice of Satan, and there you are dealing with the modernist heresy.

[AskStPhilomena]

"It is as though we agreed to trade the Sistene Chapel for a painting of Roy Orbison done on black velvet."

A very good analogy.

[GirlShortstop]

Awww, aren't you the hero... and you're wrong to boot.  An individual excerpted a crappy article and pinged me to it; that garbage (some hold as 'support') is useless. If your posting acumen wasn't lacking, you'd be aware of how FR is fabulously structured; in this case you have not avoided demonstration of your ignorance.

As far as my posting habits are concerned, take it up with the Moderator if you have a beef, or get over it, and try not to whine as you deal with it.

[GirlShortstop]

It seems to me that centuries of guidance by the Spiritum Sanctum would help us approach it with a greater degree of success; that is, that we'd be doing better after the guidance than we were before the guidance.

It seems to me dsc that you have decided/determined what 'success' means; anything that does not fit into your preconceived category is deemed as abandonment of the Holy Spirit.  Hopefully this is a misunderstanding.

Now concerning spiritual things, my brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2	You know that when you were heathens, you went to dumb idols, according as you were led.

3	Wherefore, I give you to understand that no man, speaking by the Spirit of God, saith Anathema to Jesus. And no man can say The Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost.

4	Now there are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit.

5	And there are diversities of ministries. but the same Lord.

6	And there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all in all.

7	And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.

8	To one indeed, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom: and to another, the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit:

9	To another, faith in the same spirit: to another, the grace of healing in one Spirit:

10	To another the working of miracles: to another, prophecy: to another, the discerning of spirits: to another, diverse kinds of tongues: to another, interpretation of speeches.

11	But all these things, one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will.

12	For as the body is one and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body: So also is Christ.

13	For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free: and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink.

14	For the body also is not one member, but many.

15	If the foot should say: Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body: Is it therefore not of the Body?

16	And if the ear should say: Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body: Is it therefore not of the body?

17	If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?

18	But now God hath set the members, every one of them, in the body as it hath pleased him.

19	And if they all were one member, where would be the body?

20	But now there are many members indeed, yet one body.

21	And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help. Nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you.

22	Yea, much, more those that seem to be the more feeble members of the body are more necessary

23	And such as we think to be the less honourable members of the body, about these we put more abundant honour: and those that are our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24	But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving to that which wanted the more abundant honour.

25	That there might be no schism in the body: but the members might be mutually careful one for another.

26	And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it: or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it.

27	Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.

28	And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.

29	Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?

30	Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

31	But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way.

[Arguss]

"So, you think that somebody who's never heard of God or His Church will just, by magic, convert to something he's never heard of? Conversion is a decision, and even an ignorant person must have a minimal bit of information before he can make a decision. Where does that information come from, if not from a human agent?"

It's clear that 'somebody' has never experienced a true conversion.

As a friendly word of advice, please read ch.3, Article 1 of the CCC. That will keep you from sounding like you know absolutely nothing of the faith.

I really wasn't going to get into this discussion, but you are so deluded, as to be misrepresenting the faith. This is one of the richest chapters in the whole CCC

A preview: "It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is. For 'no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit."

"Faith is a gift of God. A supernatural virtue infused by Him. Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the Grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart, and converts it to God."

Man does not truly move another man to God.

Glory be to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

[sinkspur]

Conversion is "magic," to you.

I've got an idea. Let's shut down all the Catholic schools, all the RCIA programs, and individual instruction programs.

We don't need them, according to you. All we need do is pray, and the world will be converted.

Talk about delusion.