Apocalypse Then?

KennethGentry.com ^ | Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.D.

[Alex Murphy]

"They still hold, though, to a future Second Advent, bodily resurrection of the dead, and Final Judgment."

It's important to emphasise this sentence. While the author uses the term "preterist", he is talking about what others refer to as the partial-preterist view.

Full preterism denies a future (final) return of Christ, a future (bodily) resurrection of the dead, etc, as it believes all of these things occured in a non-literal fashion during the first century. It's my understanding that full preterism is considered heretical doctrine, because of it's denial of a future literal fulfillment Christ's return and of a future, bodily resurrection of believers.

Partial preterism (the author's view) still looks forward to a literal fulfillment of those events, occuring in the future. Partial preterism is not considered heretical for this reason.

[escapefromboston]

Ping for later

Apocalypse delayed is Apocalypse denied

[Destro]

Evangelicals are too concerned with the Apocalypsis (on a level that sometimes embraces heresy). The New Testament warns against date setting and pondering too much on that aspect of The Revelation (the when and how part).

In some cases some of these types have turned Revlation into a doom's day cult -repleat with revealed knowledge and date or event settings (which is prophesising) which never come to pass (thus false prophets).

[missyme]

We are not suppose to try and predict the date of Jesus's return, But Prophecy is something that is written through out the Bible and we do ourselves a dis-service and to GOD by not reading and looking at world events as foretold in the Holy Bible....GOD wants us to be aware of the sorrows that will be coming to earth this will make us stronger spiritually and keep us strong when we see so much pain and violence all around us...Prophecy IMHO is like a protective sheild around us...

[OrionD.Hunter]

If we were spiritual we would realize the end came a long time ago, and the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. He never left. Thank God!

[Destro]

Look to future events for what purpose? So you can slack at being a good Christian until the last minute? Jesus said he will come like a thief in the night so all the looking out will do you no good for you will be asleep and looking in the wrong place. Also those that fix dates and scenarios about the future based on Revelation are dangerously delving into false prophechy and spread deception - even if they are well meaning.

[Alex Murphy]

Evangelicals are too concerned with the Apocalypsis (on a level that sometimes embraces heresy).

I agree wholeheartedly. We treat the end-times like an investor uses the Wall Street Journal, speculating on world events like a stock broker trying to decide whether to sell short or long. Today's troubles and moral challenges are enough for us to be worried about. The Great Commission can't be fulfilled if we're hiding in bomb shelters.

And personally, I've never met a pre-tribber who didn't believe that Armageddon was coming within their (or at best the next) generation.

[missyme]

Where is it written that we should not study prophecy? Because you look for prophecy in current events does not mean your looking for a way to act until one believes the end is near. The fact that the world is getting worse not better gives many people hope in prophetics words from the Bible....You make it sound like it's hokey pokey crystal ball stuff.

If GOd did not want us to know the future of things to come in the Holy Bible it would have been omited.

[Destro]

Where did I say write that one should not study prophesey? Please don't put words in my mouth.

These are my words: "those that fix dates and scenarios about the future based on Revelation are dangerously delving into false prophechy and spread deception - even if they are well meaning."

So study away but don't look to use prophesey as a forecast to know when to go to your survivalist retreat.

Those that I single out are those like Hal Lindsey @ http://www.armageddonbooks.com/hal.html and his ilk who always seem to always get their predictions wrong.

There is a segment of the Evangelical community that seems to preach exclusively from Revelation such as "the world's foremost prophetic scholars - Dr. Jack Van Impe" @ http://www.jvim.com/about.htm.

What is most damaging is that these Evangelical beliefs were mutated through the prisim of the Cold War and clouded many judgements. The USSR must be the land of the anti-Christ - lets arm the jihadis - who are pius Muslims to fight for us. Then when the USSR collapses by itself this takes many in America by surprise - a whole industry built around the the USSR is the Beast because of the Cold War and Armaggedon already exists so any future engagement with Russia is not allowed - because the Russians are really the KGB and it was all a plot to sneak in a one world govt! Maybe this is why America did not carry out a Marshall plan the former USSR? Maybe the anti-christ will come from the EU? (few seem to think he will be an American - the world's only super power for generations to come that could actually enforce its mark on hand and head).

Currently we have to watch Evangelicals "test" the Lord and dare him into the Apocalypse by setting up events in the Middle East that they think will bring about the end times - breading the red heffers for sacrifice at the Temple - but first we must kick out the Muslims form the temple - which we want to do - but we only want to kick the Muslims out because it will bring out a holy war - which we want because that will create conditions for the final battle, etc.

That borders on human sacrifice by indirect means in the hope that this world ending war will push Jesus to return.

[patricktschetter]

Looking at Matthew 24 I'm not convinced the story is over yet. I'd think someone would have noticed all the tribes of the earth mourning or Christ coming "on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (24:30). And this would seem to "immediately follow" (24:29) a tribulation in 24:21, which follows an "abomination of desolation" "standing in the holy place" (24:15). And I don't think we can comfortably say even now that 24:14 is taken care of, the gospel being preached in all the world.

[Poohbah]

What is most damaging is that these Evangelical beliefs were mutated through the prisim of the Cold War and clouded many judgements. The USSR must be the land of the anti-Christ - lets arm the jihadis - who are pius Muslims to fight for us. Then when the USSR collapses by itself this takes many in America by surprise - a whole industry built around the the USSR is the Beast because of the Cold War and Armaggedon already exists so any future engagement with Russia is not allowed - because the Russians are really the KGB and it was all a plot to sneak in a one world govt!

Thank you for a succint explanation of the sudden spate of Russophobia on FR.

I think Putin is reprising Pinochet. Not a pretty thing to watch while it happens, though.

And I firmly believe in triaging our national security problems: a revived and reunified Russian Empire may be a serious security threat at some future point in time. Islamist extremism is one right now.

[Destro]

Putin is channeling DeGaul - but in any case whatever Russia does is a sign she is in league with the antiChrist and will invade Israel - along with China. So I do think that is a major animating force for continuing Russophobic views as well as from those of secular types like the cult like Birchers who bounce beams off the evangelicals and inspire each other.

Check this site out @ http://www.soldierofthelord.4t.com/custom.html

Verse 4= It is clearly describing a situation where Russia(Magog) will feel it is forced to invade Israel due to perhaps its current economic crisis and promises of riches that are to soon be found in Israel, hence the 'hooks in his jaw'. It goes on to describe a large array or soldiers of all kinds heavily armed.

This view was formed in full during the Cold War when the USSR on paper seemed to have the most powerful amry on the planet (on paper anyway). The USSR goes away! Now what? - they keep the Russia part even though Russia today can't fight its way out of a paper bag - nor will she be able to for a long time to come and invent these elaborate scenarios now that the old template is gone.

[kosta50]

Now what? - they keep the Russia part even though Russia today can't fight its way out of a paper bag - nor will she be able to for a long time to come and invent these elaborate scenarios now that the old template is gone <p. Hey, but it's good for the business! The military-industrialist complex is doing great, almost if nto better than during the Cold War. War is good for the economy...for a while at least. You know -- perpetual warfare for perpetual profits.

[Destro]

I lay the blame for these doomsday forecasting Christians - who scour the news looking for signs of the endtimes - of course it is distorted to fit a Bible belt mentality.

[topcat54]

In Part 1, I looked at futuristic and preteristic views of Matthew 24 and observed that dispensational futurists tend to be literalists, while preterists preferred a hermeneutic which allowed Scripture to interpret Scripture. For example, the futurist would say the prophecy of the sun, moon, and stars being darkened (Matthew 24:29) has not been literally fulfilled and therefore could not have taken place yet. The preterist would point out that this verse is a direct quote of figurative passages which declared impending judgment in past biblical history (Is. 13:9-10; Is. 34:4; Ez. 32: 7-8; Joel 2:20 which is quoted in Acts 2:20; Amos 8:9, ). Consistent interpretation would require the expectation of fulfillment consistent with the quoted passages, i.e., a widespread destruction such as what occurred in Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Preterists maintain their belief that the prophecies of Matthew 24 were fulfilled on the basis of passages such as v. 34: "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things are fulfilled." This verse is a problem passage for futurists who must abandon a literal hermeneutic and claim that "generation" really means "race," even though the term is never used that way in Scripture.

Meanwhile preterists contend that Jesus' hearers believed His message and escaped the wholesale slaughter of Jerusalem. Had not Jesus warned his hearers (v. 15) to flee to the mountains? The parallel passage in Luke is very specific:

From Matthew 24: Prophecies of Destruction - Pt. 2

Coming in the Clouds

The third and final clause of verse 30 says, "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." This clause has been thought to relate definitely to the second, visible, and personal coming of the Lord. But in the light of well-defined biblical language, the reference is rather to a coming in terms of the events of his providence in judgment against his enemies and in deliverance of his people.

It should be noted carefully that neither this verse nor this particular clause indicates a coming upon earth. Some have read into this clause that Jesus was actually descending to the earth for the purpose of taking up a reign in the city of Jerusalem. Nothing like that is indicated. As a matter of fact, there is not a single verse in the New Testament to indicate that Christ will reign upon a material throne in the material city of Jerusalem. This thought has been imported by a carnal interpretation of Old Testament passages. Christ is actually seated now upon his Messianic throne.

Many commentators have taken it for granted that the expression "coming in the clouds" refers to a visible coming of Christ. A careful study of the Scriptures, however, reveals that that is not a necessary interpretation. A similar expression occurs in Isaiah 19:1, "Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it." Although this passage speaks of the Lord riding upon a cloud and of his presence, nevertheless we know that the Egyptians did not see the Lord in a personal, visible way. The Lord riding upon a swift cloud indicated a coming in judgment against the Egyptians.

A similar type of expression concerning judgment is found in Psalm 97:2,3: "Clouds and darkness are round him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne. A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about." In speaking of the mighty power of God the Psalmist uses this expression: "Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters; who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind" (Ps. 104:3). The expression "who maketh the clouds his chariot," is no different from "coming in the clouds of heaven." In the Psalms there is no thought of a personal, visible coming of the Lord, but rather references to his judgment and power.

Following the well-defined biblical sense of such expression the last clause of verse 30 may well be interpreted then to indicate a coming in judgment and power: judgment against his enemies and power to the establishment of his kingdom.

From An Eschatology of Victory by J. Marcellus Kik

[topcat54]

Currently we have to watch Evangelicals "test" the Lord and dare him into the Apocalypse by setting up events in the Middle East that they think will bring about the end times - breading the red heffers for sacrifice at the Temple - but first we must kick out the Muslims form the temple - which we want to do - but we only want to kick the Muslims out because it will bring out a holy war - which we want because that will create conditions for the final battle, etc.

Not to mention all those well-meaning Christians who are funding the return of Jews to Israel from around the world while at the same time believing that 2/3 of the Jews in Israel will be killed during the "Great Tribulation". If these Christian really believed their theology they should be shouting from the rooftops for Jews to stay away from the Middle East.

[kosta50]

Good point! But judging from the great relatonship the Evangelicals enjoy with the Jewish groups, the Jews obviously don't believe them but won't turn down their offer. If someone came to you and said "God sent me to save you; here is a $1 million, take it" would you turn it down even if you didn't believe the fool?

[Destro]

The Israelis and Jews are playing the evangelicals for all it is worth - I would say more power to them but there is the possibility they do great damage incouraging these types. Just last week an article in one of these evangelical websites was commenting on the growing Russian and Israeli alliance - the author (a woman) was trying to come to terms with this impossibility because of what their cult views are on the end times in regards to Russia - she concluded that Russia is communistic at heart and thus will be there - don't you worry none, Mabel - for the the invasion of the Holy Land.

[Destro]

These are the type of "armaggedon cult Christians" I am talking about: New Russian-Israel Co-Operation Won’t Stop ''End-Time'' Russian Invasion

Commentary on the News

Friday, September 17, 2004

Jan Markell

Those evil Israelis. That’s the eye-view of most of the world, yet they have recently brought several of the severely injured Beslan school children to Israel for treatment.

Russian surgeons simply don’t have the experience of mending such injuries that the Islamofascists perpetrated on the children a few weeks ago in the school rampage.

Michael Cherney, Israeli founder of an organization to help victims of terror in Israel says, “Since terror knows no borders, neither should our solidarity in fighting this evil and helping its victims.”

Russia has gratefully accepted the help. Contrast that with Iran’s refusal of any help from Israel after an earthquake which devastated Iran last year. Better that an Iranian child die than be saved by a Jew! Yet many on the “Arab street” blame the Jews for the Islamic slaughter of the Russian children just as they blamed the Jews for 9/11. Critics blame the Russian mafia for everything including the Beslan school incident when, in fact, Chechan Islamic terror dreams up more evil than the Russian mafia can possibly imagine, as evil as they are.

The Beslan slaughter shocked the world. Islamic Mullahs are even denouncing some of their radical Islamic brothers for the very first time. Doesn’t the world know that Jewish children in Israel have been murdered for years by Arafat, Islamic Jihad, and Hamas? Included are teens on a beach in Tel Aviv (all Russian immigrant kids), children on school busses in Israel, moms and kids in pizza parlors, drive-by shootings, and much more. The toll of the massacre of Israeli children is astronomical considering its small population. Where was the outrage at these events? Where were the Muslim cleric’s denunciations then? Just dead silence.

A number of Russian children fighting for their lives will likely survive because of big, bad Israel.

Another twist since Beslan: Russia now plans to work with Israel in its war on terror. Guess what? Our State Department, led by Colin Powell, has objected! He’s going apoplectic. The State Department remains the biggest embarrassment in the U.S. government. Are the inmates running that asylum?

But don’t think the new Israeli-Russian cooperation will change the Bible’s prophetic plan outlined in Ezekiel 38-39: The Russian invasion of Israel. Russia is still a communist nation at heart and will therefore still “think an evil thought” and invade, likely with her Islamic Republics in the south. This could be a pre-Tribulation war or perhaps immediately after the start of the Tribulation. God will bring Israel to soundly conquer the invaders and the passage says He will get all the glory as Israel will not have help of any intervening nations.

Aren’t you glad you are born “for such a time as this” to watch all this play out? Neither Mel Gibson nor Stephen Speilberg could come up with a script like the unfolding of all the events prophesied for the end of days!

(Jan Markell is founder and director of Olive Tree Ministries, Inc. For her free newsletter and to learn more of her ministry, visit the Web site, www.olivetreeviews.org. Jan is also a Contributing Editor to the Omega Letter.)

-------------------------------------------

Very disgusting views. Very dangerous if they influence policy - why make alliances with Russia in the post Cold War world to fight terrorisim when the Bible clearly says (to them anyway) that "Russia is still a communist nation at heart and will invade Israel" no matter what happens.

[Destro]

incouraging = encouraging