Michael Davies, R.I.P.

The Remnant ^ | 09/26/04 | Michael Matt

[Mark in the Old South]

Thanks. That one is better than any I have been able to find. I was hoping to find his pic in one of his books that I could scan but so far nothing. I will go with yours unless I can find something better.

Thank you.

[Deo volente]

Here's a photo of him in color:

http://www.piusx.org.pl/zw/32/grafiki/davies.jpg


(I don't know how to post the photo directly.)

[Mark in the Old South]

Thanks that one is great. I think I will use it.

Thank you

[ELS]

[Tantumergo]

"Do you think that the Mass will be translated into eubonics in some inner city parishes?"

I'm not sure what you mean by "eubonics", but if it means what I think it means then you may find that the use of the future tense in your question is not appropriate!

[ninenot]

Gilbert! Magazine just ran an interview w/Davies. Try their website: www.gilbermagazine.com, or email and request a reprint of the pic: editor@gilbertmagazine.com

What they ran was an informal picture, b/w...

[ninenot]

Even more criminal mischief was deleting the Dies Irae from all the ritual books for funeral Masses and Masses for the Dead, although it is STILL legitimate to use it.

Ironically, the tune is the MOST QUOTED tune in classical music; inter alia, Rachmaninov, Tschaikowsky, and the composer of the score for "Lion King" used it...

IIRC, there were 78 instances of quotation as of 5 years ago.

[ninenot]

Even more criminal mischief was deleting the Dies Irae from all the ritual books for funeral Masses and Masses for the Dead, although it is STILL legitimate to use it.

Ironically, the tune is the MOST QUOTED tune in classical music; inter alia, Rachmaninov, Tschaikowsky, and the composer of the score for "Lion King" used it...

IIRC, there were 78 instances of quotation as of 5 years ago.

Britten's "War Requiem" uses the theme--but backwards and upside down--as the first 4 notes of his "Dies."

[narses]

The ICEL did that.

[Agrarian]

I'm afraid I don't know what the ICEL is.

[Agrarian]

"Acutely, or terminally, deficient phronema is my diagnosis!"

I would completely agree with that based on what I have seen. Something is just wrong.

We unfortunately have our own language arguments in the Orthodox Church in the English-speaking world. The Antiochians and the ROCOR use fully traditional language. The Greeks use pretty awful modern language translations (some say this is to keep people wanting to use the Greek!) The OCA is about 1/3 modern English, 1/3 traditional English, and 1/3 RSV English (Thee/thou for God, you/who for everyone else.) There is one person translating into modern English (in England) where the English is acceptable from an aesthetic viewpoint, but in general, the choices are between beautiful traditional language and not so good modern English. The presence of traditional English in common use will, I hope, at least make sure that if common modern English translations are ever agreed upon, they will at least need to be in good modern English. I, of course, hope for better, but this is, after all, the 21st century.

Where things are going to settle out, no one knows. I am curious about the Roman Catholic experience, because when I have gotten into discussions/arguments with other Orthodox about this issue, it is often thrown back at me that traditional English is just "an Anglican thing of a certain era." I enjoy telling them about the traditional English used in the Dutch Reformed church of my childhood, the Lutheran church of my father's childhood, and about my collection of traditional language Roman Catholic liturgical/Biblical translations.

Traditional liturgical/Biblical English was the common heritage of all English-speaking Christians. It provided a beautiful, linguistically stable religious "dialect of prayer and worship" that didn't change with fads and seasons (analagous to liturgical Greek and Church Slavonic in the Orthodox Church -- and I would imagine the same would be true of Latin, at least for Italians, Spanish, etc...)

Of course, the most fascinating thing to us Orthodox about the way translations were used in the Roman Catholic Church is the way that these translations were used as cover for changes in the actual texts of the liturgy. Because our transition into English happened gradually, and because most of the faithful were able to understand the liturgical dialects of their native language (Greek, Slavonic), no-one could have gotten substantive changes to the texts of the services past the faithful.

I remember being shocked to learn that of the palette of liturgical texts available to Roman Catholics today, none of them are straightforward literal translations of the Tridentine Mass! This is incomprehensible to an Orthodox Christian.

[narses]

Can anyone succinctly explain the ICEL to our friend?

[patent]

>>>>Can anyone succinctly explain the ICEL to our friend?

Rearrange the letters. Lice.


patent

[narses]

Ouch. I thought I was tough on them.

[AskStPhilomena]

ICEL is short for "I sell my soul to the devil".
Fortunately, one of those actively involved in this form of occultism recently repented and returned to sanity....
http://www.oltyn.com/somm.htm

[Mike Fieschko]

This is off-topic for this thread, but when I was reading the text of the Requim Mass in this post, I was struck by the beautiful traditional liturgical English translation parallel to the Latin text.

Why doesn't one hear translations this beautiful in modern Roman Catholic Churches?

You're quite right to point out the, ahem, lack of beauty in the translations.

My opinion, based only on the product (the translations), is the people of the ICEL place no value on beauty. It is unimportant, as a matter of policy.

Back in 1970, the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship issued Liturgicae Instaurationes. The word 'beauty' appears twice in the short document:

The new norms have made liturgical formularies, gestures, and actions much simpler, in keeping with that principle established in the Constitution on the Liturgy: "The rites should be marked by a noble simplicity; they should be short, clear, and unencumbered by useless repetitions; they should be within the people's powers of comprehension and as a rule not require much explanation."[8] No one should go beyond these defined limits; to do so would be to strip the liturgy of its sacred symbolism and proper beauty, so needed for the fulfillment of the mystery of salvation in the Christian community and, with the help of an effective catechesis, for its comprehension under the veil of things that are seen.

and

In this matter it is advisable to proceed without haste, enlisting the help not only of theologians and liturgists, but of people of learning and letters. Then the translations will be documents of tested beauty; their grace, balance, elegance, and richness of style and language will endow them with the promise of lasting use; they will match the requirements of the inner richness of their content.

One can see by their product that ICEL has utterly failed in fulfilling the second.

Hence, I conclude that ICEL places no value on beauty.

I'm not qualified to answer the questions in your last paragraph. I am ignorant of when, where, and how was the decision made to jettison the traditional language.

[Mike Fieschko]

I remember being shocked to learn that of the palette of liturgical texts available to Roman Catholics today, none of them are straightforward literal translations of the Tridentine Mass!

But why are you shocked? (I ask this seriously.) The Latin Church doesn't use the Tridentine Mass anymore, except in extremely rare and frequently quite restricted circumstances. We use a different Mass, so of course it's not a straightforward translation.

[Dajjal]

ICEL = International Commission on English in the Liturgy

They're the committee that translates all Catholic liturgical texts from the Vatican's Latin into English. They translate; the Pope has to approve before a translation is used.

The current translation of the Novus Ordo has many inaccuracies. For about five (ten?) years now John Paul II has been trying to get the ICEL to do a better translation that sticks closer to the original text. It's still an ongoing project with no end in sight.