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All Souls Day and final destinations
Denver Catholic Register ^ | 27 October 2004 | Most Rev. Charles J.Chaput

Posted on 10/27/2004 1:25:44 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham

All Souls Day and final destinations
What really hangs in the balance

Next Tuesday, Nov. 2, is more than Election Day. It’s also All Souls Day, a day of prayer for all those faithful who have died in God’s friendship but still face the purification of Purgatory.

The Church sets aside November so we can reflect on the Four Last Things: death, judgment, heaven and hell. We can predict very little in our daily lives. But we do know that we’ll die. We’ll face God in judgment. And at the end of time we’ll find ourselves in one of two states: eternal joy with our Creator, or eternal bitterness in the prison of our own sins.

Every year at this time I reread the Prophet Amos. The word “Amos” in Hebrew literally means “one who bears the burden.” That’s what the prophets did. They were men who bore the burden of speaking God’s truth to people who didn’t want to hear it. And even today, when we read Scripture, the prophets continue to speak to us. They always give us a new burden — a new awareness that affects our lives. We find that burden summarized in a great warning the Prophet Amos gave the Jewish people: Thus says the Lord, God of hosts, “Woe to the complacent in Zion” (Am 6:1).

Our English word “complacent” comes from two Latin words; cum which means “with” and placere, which means “to please.” To be complacent means to be “pleased with,” and that usually means pleased with ourselves. Complacency has nothing to do with being lazy. It’s not about sloth. It’s about being self-satisfied. Being pleased with oneself, for a Christian, is a form of idolatry. We should only be satisfied with God.

Being pleased with themselves was the sin of the Jewish people that Amos attacked. According to Scripture, they were lying on beds of ivory, stretched out comfortably on their couches. They ate lambs taken from the flock and calves from the stall. They had more food than other people while the poor starved.

“Zion” is a word that the Old Testament sometimes uses to describe Jerusalem. Not the earthly city of Jerusalem, but Jerusalem perfected at the end of time. America today probably comes closer to that understanding of Zion than any nation in human history. We are a rich country. Our people are wealthy; even our poor are well off compared to the poor in other countries. We’re powerful in ways that no other nation has ever achieved, and compared to most places we enjoy peace. That’s why Sept. 11 was such a shock. We thought we were invincible and that we’d be at peace indefinitely. Thus, we’re a privileged nation, and so in a special way Amos’ warning is directed to us.

“Woe to the complacent in Zion.” The Jews of Amos’ time were not made ill by the collapse of Joseph. Joseph was the father of the northern tribes of Israel. Amos issued his warning because they were not made sick by the misfortune of their brothers and sisters. Likewise, if we are not made sick by the suffering of the poor, the crucifixion of other countries like Sudan and the persecution of fellow Christians around the world; if we are not somehow moved profoundly by those terrible things happening around the globe, then we deserve the same bitter judgment about which the Prophet Amos warned.

On Nov. 2 and throughout the coming month of prayer for the Poor Souls, we need to remember that we are citizens of God’s kingdom first, America second. God won’t ask about our political party when we stand before Him in judgment. He’ll ask what we did to protect the unborn child; to feed the hungry; to help the poor. And much more than a national election hangs on our answer.

Archbishop Chaput adapted his column this week from his homily at the Sept. 25 Sunset Mass at Red Rocks.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 10/27/2004 1:25:44 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Well, I won't be praying for the dead, that's for sure. Kinda scary stuff. The Bible speaks against this -- it's called necromancy. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (don't see any mention of "purgatory" in this Pauline verse).

But for the departed heroes of the faith and of this nation, the best prayer I can think of is for their families and for God's glory to once again be held up over this God-kissed nation of ours. And don't forget to be praying for this election!

Our purpose on earth is to bring the kingdom's rule and reign to earth -- not to worry, wonder, pontificate or pray for the dead. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Jesus said "Let the dead bury their dead". It's over once we die. The dead set a course for heaven or hell that can't be altered once they pass over -- and the dead cannot 'intercede" for the living on earth. Sorry -- that's Jesus's job and position with the advocacy of the Holy Spirit.

We Christians on earth are already "saints" because of His shed blood for us on the Cross-- so praying for the dead (even if they have been named "Saints" by the C. Church) is scary, weird and unnecessary. What would Jesus do? He certainly wouldn't advocate praying to his mom, who admits in her Magnificat that she is a sinner in need of a savior.
2 posted on 10/27/2004 1:45:25 PM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: Californiajones

You are ignorant of Scripture.


4 posted on 10/27/2004 2:23:20 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: Californiajones
The Bible speaks against this -- it's called necromancy.

Necromancy is conjuring up dead people's ghosts for the purpose of fortune-telling. I have no idea why you think that has anything to do with praying to God on behalf of a dead Christian brother or sister. Do you?

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"

Nice of you to invent "Scripture," but that isn't what the verse says. Paul says he would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord, but he makes no claim that the first necessarily implies the second, not even for himself.

5 posted on 10/27/2004 2:36:01 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Californiajones
The Bible speaks against this -- it's called necromancy.

Necromancy is conjuring up dead people's ghosts for the purpose of fortune-telling. I have no idea why you think that has anything to do with praying to God on behalf of a dead Christian brother or sister. Do you?

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"

Nice of you to invent "Scripture," but that isn't what the verse says. Paul says he would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord, but he makes no claim that the first necessarily implies the second, not even for himself.

6 posted on 10/27/2004 2:36:49 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Californiajones
The Bible speaks against this -- it's called necromancy.

Necromancy is conjuring up dead people's ghosts for the purpose of fortune-telling. I have no idea why you think that has anything to do with praying to God on behalf of a dead Christian brother or sister. Do you?

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"

Nice of you to invent "Scripture," but that isn't what the verse says. Paul says he would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord, but he makes no claim that the first necessarily implies the second, not even for himself.

7 posted on 10/27/2004 2:37:11 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Californiajones
He certainly wouldn't advocate praying to his mom, who admits in her Magnificat that she is a sinner

Where does the Blessed Mother acknowledge she is a sinner?

The Magnificat

My soul doth magnify the Lord:

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.

Because He hath regarded the lowliness of His Handmaid:

for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

For He that is mighty hath done great things to me: and holy is His Name.

And His mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear Him.

He hath showed might with His arm:

He hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.

He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the lowly.

He hath filled the hungry with good things: and the rich He hath sent empty away.

He hath received Israel His servant, being mindful of His mercy;

As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed forever.

8 posted on 10/27/2004 2:46:22 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: Grey Ghost II

"My spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior."

To rejoice in her Savior, means she acknowledges she is a sinner in need of salvation, i.e. needs a Savior to save her from her deserved destination -- Hell. (Where we all would be BUT for the saving Blood of Christ.)

To be saved implies there is something she needs to be saved from. If she was sinless, she would not need the Savior and therefore her spirit would have no need for rejoicing.


9 posted on 10/27/2004 3:20:47 PM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Californiajones
To rejoice in her Savior, means she acknowledges she is a sinner in need of salvation

You are really stretching it here. You make me laugh.

10 posted on 10/27/2004 3:24:43 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: A.A. Cunningham
The purification of Purgatory.

Call me a cynic, but I believe Christ's sacrifice was "purification" for believers.

11 posted on 10/27/2004 3:27:43 PM PDT by F16Fighter
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To: Jeremiah Jr
All Souls Day and final destinations

Next Tuesday, Nov. 2, is more than Election Day... <<<

12 posted on 10/27/2004 3:39:06 PM PDT by Thinkin' Gal (Arafat is a slug. Pass the salt.)
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To: Californiajones
To be saved implies there is something she needs to be saved from. If she was sinless, she would not need the Savior

Think carefully about your logic. How do Catholics think Mary became sinless? By her own effort? Because she was so good-looking? No, by the foreseen application of the merits of her crucified Son. That's dogma, a Catholic who denies it is properly called a heretic.

So, if she calls God her savior, it follows that she needed saving and was in fact saved. It does not follow that she had necessarily committed personal sins. Babies haven't committed personal sins, yet none of them can get to heaven on their own merits (to say otherwise is the heresy of Pelagianism). Catholics are required by their faith to believe precisely that her sinlessness was a gift from God, that is, that it was part and parcel of the grace that saved her.

And none of that has anything to do with praying for the Poor Souls in purgatory, which was the original topic of this thread.

13 posted on 10/27/2004 3:46:44 PM PDT by Campion
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To: F16Fighter
Okay, and believers who leave this life in the state of grace but still with some attachment to sin are purified through Christ's sacrifice how, when, and where, exactly?

Keep in mind that Scripture says that nothing unclean can enter heaven and that our God is a consuming fire. No attachment to sin can survive in his presence, can it?

14 posted on 10/27/2004 3:50:01 PM PDT by Campion
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To: A.A. Cunningham
1. Necromancy is seeking out the dead for answers or advice on the future.

Praying to a dead Christian - i.e. the dead in Christ or a dead "Saint" - as if they had more power or a different power than God to intercede for us -- is necromancy which of course is a form of idolatry.

2. To be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Notice Paul does not say: "It would be better to be absent from the body, wait out the weird, indefinite period of "purgation" of our souls when, hopefully, some Christian on earth might say enough prayers for me to finally get to a place where I might be able to be present with the Lord."

Nope. He says it's better to "be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. "

Where's any mention of purgatory here? And how could the prayers of any Christian affect the status of the dead, whose acts on earth are affixed forever in time? You mean to say if I pray hard enough for Hitler, I can change his eternal destination? It reminds me of those poor Mormons, wasting their short time on earth with eternal genealogies so they can somehow redo the eternal course of their ancestors by baptizing the dead by proxy. Weirdly Satanic distraction from our major focus on earth -- proclaiming the gospel to the unbeliever and bringing Christ's kingdom of love to earth.

The saint stuff and purgatory stuff are extra biblical distractions -- Paul calls us to:

"Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

"Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints...."

Our prayer engages us in the heavenly battle against the invisible army of the Evil one, the Satanic forces of hell on earth, for the purposes of extending the kingdom of God on earth. Are you saying that the people in purgatory are still subject to the Principalities of Satan in Purgatory? Ya know what I think? I think all this praying for the dead and praying to saints distracts a Christian from seeing the battle of good and evil that wages around them -- this is why we are equipped in the Holy Spirit to do prayer battle against Hell. The Lord calls us to proclaim the Gospel now. The Dead in Christ either heard the call and took the "narrow road" to Heaven or the wide path to destruction of Hell. Our concern needs to be on those unsaved and how to pull down "strongholds" i.e. arguments that rail against God in our lives as well as the lives of those who are not yet believers.
15 posted on 10/27/2004 3:52:56 PM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Campion
Why? Then why would Mary bother to be there in the upper room at Pentecost if she had no need for the infilling of the newly coming Gifts of the Spirit? Mary, as all the other disciples, needed a savior and committed sins. How about the time she and Jesus' brothers came to Him and tried to get him to stop healing all those people? And Jesus said "who are my brothers and my mother" (my paraphrase) My mother and my brothers are those who do the will of my Father in heaven." He did not indicate any special dispensation or anything like that on His brothers and Mary.
16 posted on 10/27/2004 3:58:38 PM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Californiajones
Don't you think it's odd that you quote St. Thomas in your tagline when you attack his faith in your posts? Can't you find a Protestant tagline?

Praying to a dead Christian - i.e. the dead in Christ or a dead "Saint" - as if they had more power or a different power than God to intercede for us

... is simply something that no Catholic knowledgeable in his faith does. It's a red herring. The saints are powerful because they are in the presence of God and filled with his divine life and charity. Their intercession flows through the mediation of Christ, just like the intercession of the (then biologically) living Christians Paul asks to pray for him in his letters. If what we do is wrong, what he did is wrong also.

Don't bother saying "but he didn't pray to dead people"; I'll just point you back to Jesus telling the Sadducees, "Why does God say to Moses, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ... he is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

And how could the prayers of any Christian affect the status of the dead, whose acts on earth are affixed forever in time? You mean to say if I pray hard enough for Hitler, I can change his eternal destination?

If you mean can you dig Hitler out of hell and get him to heaven, no, you can't. Purgatory is only for the saved.

You really seem determined to attack a caricature of Catholicism. Why don't you try actually coming to some sort of understanding of the real thing, instead of throwing up and shooting down these strawman arguments?

17 posted on 10/27/2004 4:00:58 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion

"Keep in mind that Scripture says that nothing unclean can enter heaven and that our God is a consuming fire. No attachment to sin can survive in his presence, can it?"

Of course. Our sins are covered by the blood of Christ. Blood is required for the remission of sins. Once and for all it was done on the Cross. That is faith -- trusting that all of our sins are pardoned by God.


18 posted on 10/27/2004 4:03:20 PM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Californiajones
Mary, as all the other disciples, needed a savior and committed sins.

You haven't proved that Mary committed any sins, nor have you refuted my objection to your logic.

How about the time she and Jesus' brothers came to Him and tried to get him to stop healing all those people?

I think you're inventing another "Scripture" that doesn't exist. None of the three Gospels that mention this episode say anything about Mary or anyone else trying to "get" Jesus "to stop healing" anyone. It just says that they wanted to see him. No sin in that.

19 posted on 10/27/2004 4:05:40 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion
"Okay, and believers who leave this life in the state of grace but still with with some attachment to sin are purified through Christ's sacrifice how, when, and where, exactly?"

The moment Christ died, he took ALL the sins of the world on Him -- not some of them.

It is up to us whether we accept His "grace."

As He said to His Father according to Scripture: "It is done."

"Keep in mind that Scripture says that nothing unclean can enter heaven and that our God is a consuming fire. No attachment to sin can survive in his presence, can it?"

Hear ya...

Again, through the Lord's mercy, that was the reason for the sinless Christ's sacrifice. NO man was/is sinless but by and through the redemption of the Savior....

20 posted on 10/27/2004 4:06:26 PM PDT by F16Fighter
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To: Campion

Okay -- I don't remember if Thomas A Kempis was a Catholic or Protestant and don't really care. But if we are to "imitate Christ" in all we do -- then how come Jesus didn't pray to the dead or to Moses or anyone like that?

Because it is forbidden by scripture to worship anything before God.

This is the First Commandment.


21 posted on 10/27/2004 4:06:43 PM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Californiajones
Our sins are covered by the blood of Christ.

Nice exposition of Lutheran theology; too bad it's not Biblical. Why did John the Baptist say, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world", not "Behold the Lamb of God, who covers up the sin of the world."?

If your sins are merely covered, not wiped away, you're still going to hell. Luther said that the justified man was a snow-covered dungheap. The Bible says that God is a consuming fire. What happens when a snow-covered dungheap contacts a consuming fire?

22 posted on 10/27/2004 4:08:32 PM PDT by Campion
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To: F16Fighter
The moment Christ died, he took ALL the sins of the world on Him -- not some of them.

Nobody is disputing that.

Now, one more time, believers who leave this life in the state of grace but with an attachment to sin must be purified before they enter the presence of God. Do you agree or disagree?

If you agree, then how, when or where does this purification take place in the life of the individual believer?

23 posted on 10/27/2004 4:10:43 PM PDT by Campion
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To: F16Fighter
The moment Christ died, he took ALL the sins of the world on Him -- not some of them.

Nobody is disputing that.

Now, one more time, believers who leave this life in the state of grace but with an attachment to sin must be purified before they enter the presence of God. Do you agree or disagree?

If you agree, then how, when or where does this purification take place in the life of the individual believer?

24 posted on 10/27/2004 4:11:14 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Californiajones
Thomas A Kempis

Thomas a Kempis and Thomas Aquinas are two totally different men. Both were Catholic; Aquinas lived a good 200 years before the other fellow.

Because it is forbidden by scripture to worship anything before God.

I agree, but asking someone for their prayers isn't worshipping them. Whether the person you're asking is in heaven or on earth makes no difference. If saying "Mary, pray for us" is idolatry, then Paul was an idolater when he asked his readers to pray for him.

Hint: the problem is not that I worship Mary. The problem is that you do not really worship God. Biblical worship implies sacrifice; Protestant church services are not, and do not claim to be, a sacrifice. Asking someone for a favor, singing songs to them, or hearing a talk about them isn't real worship.

25 posted on 10/27/2004 4:15:15 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Californiajones
Our concern needs to be on those unsaved

Then why are you hassling fellow Christian believers? Maybe you should be more concerned about being distracted yourself, and less concerned about what you think distracts other people.

26 posted on 10/27/2004 4:19:17 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion
"Now, one more time, believers who leave this life in the state of grace but with an attachment to sin must be purified before they enter the presence of God. Do you agree or disagree?"

Either one believes that Christ died as payment for their sins, and accepts this gift -- OR they don't.

THAT suffices as "purification."

As to the degree of that faith, and rejection OR heavenly reward, only God judges.

If you ask if I believe if the destination of the already-departed soul is affected by the living, my answer is NO.

27 posted on 10/27/2004 4:20:07 PM PDT by F16Fighter
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To: Campion
How come Mary and Jesus' brothers were standing outside wanting to speak with Jesus when he was inside speaking to the multitudes? Clearly, the Lord was doing the will of God. What could possibly be so urgent as to take Jesus away from His work on earth, if Mary understood who her Son was, not only the Savior of the World, but her personal Savior as well?

Now, If God was going to do some special thing with Mary, why would Jesus say: "Who is my mother and who are my brothers?" He stretched out his hand toward his disciples and said Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!"

This passage in Matthew 12 always said to me that Jesus' disciples were doing the will of God while his mom and bros were head scratching outside as to what Jesus was doing. In other words, they did not get it about Jesus.

This is also shown in John where Jesus effectively ditches his brothers and does not tell them his exact plans because they could not hear Him for their lack of faith.

/7:1/ After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He did not wish to go about in Judea because the Jews were looking for an opportunity to kill him. /7:2/ Now the Jewish festival of Booths was near. /7:3/ So his brothers said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing; /7:4/ for no one who wants to be widely known acts in secret. If you do these things, show yourself to the world." 7:5 (For not even his brothers believed in him.) /7:6/ Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. /7:7/ The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify against it that its works are evil. /7:8/ Go to the festival yourselves. I am not going to this festival, for my time has not yet fully come." /7:9/ After saying this, he remained in Galilee. /7:10/ But after his brothers had gone to the festival, then he also went, not publicly but as it were in secret.

Again Jesus had to evade his brothers because His brothers did not believe i.e. they did not have faith. They did not believe in Him! If Mary was not given the same level of faithfulness that the disciples were in Matthew 12 and Jesus' brothers were said to not believe in Jesus, it seems strange and unlikely that God would perform some extra biblical miracle of giving Mary divine, sinlessness after Jesus ascended.

It is not that she was not saved -- it is that she is not to be prayed to. It breaks the First commandment.
28 posted on 10/27/2004 4:22:41 PM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: F16Fighter
Either one believes that Christ died as payment for their sins, and accepts this gift -- OR they don't.

THAT suffices as "purification."

That doesn't answer my question. You know as well as I do that (some, not all) believers die with an attachment to sins. Maybe they're little sins, but they're still sins in God's eyes. If you are trying to tell me that they can waltz right into God's presence that way, you're contradicting Scripture which says that nothing unclean can enter heaven. Attachment to sin ... any sin ... is uncleaness. It must be removed before you enter the presence of a perfectly righteous God.

Christ earned your right to have it removed, but that's not the same thing as actually removing it, just like having the money to pay the doctor for removing your cancer isn't the same thing has having the operation done.

29 posted on 10/27/2004 4:24:43 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion

The moment we are born again we leave the "old man" behind.

As for dung heaps and consuming fire -- you are parsing words instead of recognizing, with a childlike faith that God is a good God who loves you and sent His only begotten Son to take OUR place on the cross. Why are you mixing up the words of Luther with the Word of God? Who cares? Will you, or have you, accepted the FREE GIFT of salvation from Jesus in His finished work on the Cross?

If so, look around you at the real warfare going on for our country and sign up as an intercessor to pray that the very REAL forces of evil will not succeed in destoying us. If you say that you are on the side of Christ, then put on the whole armor of God and take your stand.


30 posted on 10/27/2004 4:28:27 PM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Californiajones
I don't care about Jesus' "brothers", so you can leave them out of the discussion entirely.

This passage in Matthew 12 always said to me that Jesus' disciples were doing the will of God while his mom and bros were head scratching outside as to what Jesus was doing. In other words, they did not get it about Jesus.

Failing to understand something perfectly is a sin?

it seems strange and unlikely that God would perform some extra biblical miracle of giving Mary divine, sinlessness after Jesus ascended.

This is a further error that Protestants make, that of equating "sinless" with "divine". Adam and Eve were sinless humans, until they sinned. They weren't divine. Nor was it inevitable that they sinned; not even Calvinists think so AFAIK. Asserting that Mary was created with the same original innocence as Eve no more makes her divine than it made Eve divine. Being sinless does not make a human being divine. It makes them fully human. Sin always makes us less than human, closer to the animals.

It breaks the First commandment.

The First Commandment says "have no strange gods before me," not "don't ask souls I've redeemed and glorified for their prayers".

31 posted on 10/27/2004 4:32:57 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion
"Christ earned your right to have it removed, but that's not the same thing as actually removing it, just like having the money to pay the doctor for removing your cancer isn't the same thing has having the operation done."

Actually a legal argument is a better one. Jesus paid all our fines and violations, while the "Accuser" the Devil stands in the galley yelling all sorts of lies and deceptions at us. Our walk as Christians is one where we must resist the "fiery darts" of the Enemy and remember that our sins (fines) have been paid for and walk in the remembrance and faith and joy of that love. Should we sin again, we do have the same advocate (as Paul laments how he can't believe he sins even though he is saved) but it is our intent to be like Jesus and pick up our cross daily to Follow Him that is important.
32 posted on 10/27/2004 4:32:59 PM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Californiajones
"Well, I won't be praying for the dead"

You are like the mother of the soldier marcing by where she and a neighbor stood watching the 1000 of them march by. Mom exclaimes to her friend, that's my john! Did you see him go by? Her friend exclaimes...no! How can you tell it's your John? See, See...He is the only one in step.

Must be kind of cool that you are the only one with the truth!

33 posted on 10/27/2004 4:34:51 PM PDT by BellStar (Bush will win!)
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To: Campion

I was referring to MY IMITATION OF CHRIST by THOMAS A KEMPIS. Not Thomas Aquinas. All these old dudes who did NOT have the gifts of the Spirit as did the early Church may have been smart but they did not have the gifts of Pentecost as promised -- that's why I could care less as to their denominational distinctions.


34 posted on 10/27/2004 4:34:58 PM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Californiajones
The moment we are born again we leave the "old man" behind.

In other words, Mary wasn't sinless but you are? Come on, you can't have it both ways! You and I both know that most Christians still commit sins and still have some attachment to them.

Why are you mixing up the words of Luther with the Word of God?

Ask Luther; he started it.

If so, look around you at the real warfare going on for our country and sign up as an intercessor to pray that the very REAL forces of evil will not succeed in destoying us.

I do that every single night with my family, friend. So why are you sowing dissension between Christians when you correctly recognize that we face a much greater mutual enemy?

35 posted on 10/27/2004 4:36:19 PM PDT by Campion
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To: BellStar

"Must be kind of cool that you are the only one with the truth!"

Nah. Just Jesus. But my hand is to the plow -- I'm not lookin' back.


36 posted on 10/27/2004 4:37:16 PM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Californiajones
Actually a legal argument is a better one.

Jesus isn't just my defense attorney. Scripture calls him my elder brother and kinsman redeemer. Justification is family, not just legal acquittal.

37 posted on 10/27/2004 4:37:55 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Californiajones
Read your tagline; it quotes Thomas Aquinas. If you think he didn't have the Holy Spirit, why do you quote him?

I need to go now. Picking fights doesn't build up the body of Christ. Think about it.

38 posted on 10/27/2004 4:39:25 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion
"That doesn't answer my question. You know as well as I do that (some, not all) believers die with an attachment to sins. Maybe they're little sins, but they're still sins in God's eyes. If you are trying to tell me that they can waltz right into God's presence that way, you're contradicting Scripture which says that nothing unclean can enter heaven. Attachment to sin ... any sin ... is uncleaness. It must be removed before you enter the presence of a perfectly righteous God."

I understand...

Of course "nothing clean" can enter heaven. ALL of us are sinners. The sin is "removed" through the sacrifice of a sinless Christ and it is in that belief and testimony to HIM that he is your Lord, and you are promised "everlasting life."

Remember the criminal of the cross with Jesus? He story is a great metaphor for God's mercy.

He was a thief, unbeliever, and of course, a "sinner." Up until that last few seconds of his life. Christ Himself told the thief he would be with him in his "Kingdom" -- No "purification" required...

In fact should he mean it, if Saddam Hussein called Jesus Christ his "Lord and Savior" Lord one second before the hangman, even HE is promised "everlasting life."

Let me ask you a question: Isn't one itty bitty sin, the same as the most heinous sin is heaven?

God's grace is that great.

39 posted on 10/27/2004 4:40:59 PM PDT by F16Fighter
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To: Campion
"In other words, Mary wasn't sinless but you are? Come on, you can't have it both ways! You and I both know that most Christians still commit sins and still have some attachment to them."

No -- our sins have been forgiven. That is what "grace" is.

As for Christians with a propensity to fall back into sin -- that's their "cross" or in Paul's case, his "thorn in the flesh".

I'm not sowing dissent. I'm just saying that there is no Christian reason that anyone should be praying to or for the dead --ever -- but especially this election week.
40 posted on 10/27/2004 4:57:28 PM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Campion

Thought about you later tonight and really didn't want to fight over ancient Church issues -- God bless you and your family and may the Spirit infuse your life with courage, vision, wisdom and love. And please don't let my posts become obstacles to your faithful prayers or seeking of His glory.


41 posted on 10/27/2004 9:36:03 PM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

I have sympathy for the intention of the message of Amos, as it breaths the spirit of the scripture to live good and truthful.
As the article states: if you are privileged, to be complacent is a sin, be moved by the suffering of the poor; care for the victims -[here: ..the crucifixion of countries (...) and the persecution (...)]- or deserve bitter judgment.

The judgment is as usual in the biblical writing tradition -it's all about the truth- announced by the truthspeaker, the prophet, the guy who sees it. He is as much liked as a man with smart words and lofty demands is today. That's his burden, bearable as long as he isn't beaten out of town and has his next meal coming.

So I like the main message of AA Cunninghams contribution. Religion is a suit that can help to shape our life. Also the truth has many forms and we always have to agree on one. How holy was Jezus mother? Enough to be his mom in the bible.

When I look at all the assumptions in this article, then I have to wonder what is
religious about a number of them.

For example:

1
'We should only be satisfied with God.'
I agree, everything flows, we do not stay here, we know that.
(note: there is individual life on earth that doesn't die. It returns to baby-state and then starts anew. So cells have found at least one way to escape aging).

2
'we need to remember that we are citizens of Gods kingdom first'
Allright, Gods kingdom, a fitting name.

3, 4 and 5
'All Souls Day and final destinations'
'Jerusalem perfected at the end of time'
'when we stand before Him in judgment. He will ask what we did in specifics..'

These all lead to one question: 'Really, is that so?'
We know little about the things we see happen in our universe.
And religion is about the truth we agree on.


42 posted on 10/29/2004 2:41:40 AM PDT by fallon
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To: Campion
Luther said that the justified man was a snow-covered dungheap.

Hey Campion, I don't know if you're still out there, but I'm wondering if you can give a reference for this or where I might find it in Luther's works/teachings. (Sounds pretty heretical to me.) Thanks.

43 posted on 10/29/2004 7:47:35 PM PDT by sojourner
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To: A.A. Cunningham

BTTT on the Commemoration of all the Faithful Departed -- All Souls Day, November 2, 2006!


44 posted on 11/02/2006 8:49:44 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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