Posted on 11/19/2004 8:21:22 AM PST by Stubborn
"Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator is offered for them, or when alms are given in the church." (Ench Faith, Hope, Love 29:110)
Wow I hadn't realized that Augustine was so er, ah, um eh ... Catholic back then. Now I realize why Jerome didn't care for him. Lol
JH :)
"Some people" is too broad. Some people believe airplane contrails are a government program to control the population. Some people believe they will be reincarnated as insects. I can't give you a reason why "some people" don't believe what I believe. More to the point, I am begining to wonder if you actually have SPECIFIC examples that other Christians believe something significanctly different than what I believe. If you do, please offer them. For example, exactly who believes Christ wasn't present in actual physical form at the Last Supper?
I CAN tell you why I believe what I believe. I believe that the Bible is God's Word. I believe it is THE source of information on His plan for His children. I believe that He communicates with me directly through the Holy Spirit, and that with His help, even someone like me can understand His will and His word. Through the course of years of personal study and devotion, I have witnessed Him working directly in my life. I have actually felt His presence. With the birth of my two children, I have been given a clearer insight into the depth of His love for His children. Traveling throughout the world, I have witnessed his incredible work. Looking at a picture of an eyeball, I can see the miracle of His design. My relationship with God is DEEPLY personal. That is by His design. He sent the Holy Spirit to ME. Not just to my pastor or bishop or even the Pope. He never said I needed HUMAN approved doctrine to understand His will. He told me to pray directly to HIM. If you find comfort in the Catholic Doctrine that is fine. God approaches each of us differently and communicates with us according to our needs. But I highly recommend you back up your faith in Catholic Doctrine with personal study of God's Word. Don't take ANY MAN's word for it. Ask God. He will talk to you. He is FAR more capable than any HUMAN of communicating His Word. Certainly you must believe that.
Without further detail, I really don't understand what she is saying. What exactly does "giving her life to Jesus" mean? I actually believe she is 180 degrees out from where she needs to be. Christ gave HIS life to save us. He doesn't ask for our lives in return. He asks for our love. But if she reads the Bible vociferously, and if she prays for guidance, she will come to that conclusion in time. Christ is the good shepard. He won't let his lambs stray. Especially if they truly seek Him. I would not be surprised to learn that your friend has only just recently began a personal study in Christianity. Is that true?
"But I believe that God is merciful enough to have given me the protection of a Church to tell me when I'm wrong, and let me know when I've walked away from the truth. He knows I'm an idiot. But one thing I know for sure is that I shouldn't trust my own mind, because the Devil is real, and he's interested in my soul."
I think that is very interesting. I do believe that God leads us to a Church that best suits our needs. Clearly for you, that is the Catholic Church. But you do NOT need the Church to tell you when you are wrong. That is God's role. And he will. He's just about smacked me with a 2x4 more than a few times in my life. I certainly didn't need a priest to confirm my errors. God is the great communicator. And NO man can do a more perfect job. You simply CANNOT rely on man to keep you on track. Too often, our most trusted religious authorities turn out to be the most harmful to our faith. Obviously, the Catholic Church has had some significant problems with that recently. But those problems aren't unique to the Catholic Church. It takes only a few minutes of watching one of the slick tele-evangilists on T.V. to realize that trusting MAN to lead you to God is a poor decision. Mormons are exceptionally well-versed in their Churches doctrine. They believe their Church was established by Jesus Christ and is the only true path to salvation. They believe their leaders are chosen by God. The Mormon Church is full of wonderful, smart, devoted people. But the Mormon Church is leading its followers down the wrong path. Once again, trusting man to lead you to God is folly.
I laughed when you wrote that God knows you're an idiot. I guess we share that in common. I can screw up an empty parking lot. And I too know that I cannot trust my own mind. But just as importantly, I know that I cannot trust any man before God. We are all sinners. We are all equally human in God's sight. If you place your trust in institutions run by men, you are placing your trust in someone who is just as idiotic as you and I. Satan is real. So real, that I cannot afford to let any man serve as my relay to God. I have got to go directly to the source. When I study the Bible I pray for God's guidance. I speak directly to him. And he speaks to me. And no flawed, sinful, mortal human can currupt that communication. Nor can Satan. And with study, devotion, and time, God communicates to me exactly what I need to hear. Even when I don't want to hear it. Because despite the fact that I'm an idiot, God still loves me. He loves me so much that He wants a personal relationship with me. He wants to talk with me, sit with me, give me a big high five when I make the right choice in life. I am His child and He wants me to trust Him, not the Church, with my life and faith. So I do.
Thats right, but neither can you claim with absolute certainty that you or your Magisterium is under direct supervision of Gods Holy Spirit. Thats why we try to impress on Catholics that they will have to answer for them selves, and they wont be able to call in their Bishop or the Pope to explain how you used, or neglected to use the Spirit God gives everyone of His believers.
But there are 'spiritual fathers' other than God in both the New and Old Testaments. Joseph called himself the "father to Pharoah." That less famous guy, Eliakim, God made him a "father to the people of Judah." And what about Elisha crying "Father, my Father" to his spiritual father, Elijah?
You have learned all the spin techniques very well, but I believe you know they dont apply here. If you look up father in the dictionary, youll see there are some 10 or 12 uses of the word. Two of them are
Thorndike-Earnhart Dictionary
Clergyman given this name
Title of respect for priest and clergy.
They are religious titles, used by no other Christians Church but yours. Christ was certainly aware of all the legitimate uses of the word father, and I believe this warning was given just for your Church. Im sure there will be a lot of explaining to do some day.
Paul did state he had become your father but certainly never asked or allowed anyone to give him the title of father, and no one ever did, especially after they read what Matthew wrote.:)
And what about Elisha crying "Father, my Father" to his spiritual father, Elijah?
What about it, Jesus had never commanded Elisha not to call Elijah father, so there was no command against it until Matthew 23:9.
." There's 1 John, I think in the second chapter, when he addresses the men in charge of his congregations as 'fathers'.
Duh . Thats because they were fathers, sheeeeesss
So why would they do something so blatantly contrary to the Word of God? They decided to interpret this line figuratively.
So if I interpret do not steal figuratively, then I can steal, right?
If father is a figurative word, then what is the literal word?
Along the same lines of scripture in which Christ commands us to pop out eyes and chop off arms, if they lead us in to sin. God did not mean for His followers to be blind amputees, of course. He was trying to make a point. God.
Augustine had a decent explanation for that. (my paraphrase) If its a crime or a vice, its figurative. If its an act of prudence or benevolence, its literal. Call no man on earth your father is an act of prudence or benevolence, because its certainly not a crime or a vice to not call a spiritual guide father.
That was the Church's interpretation. Your's is obviously different. Do you have way of knowing that the Church's figurative interpretation is wrong, but your literal interpretation is right?
Yes, its the obvious interpretation that anyone but a Catholic can see, and since no one in the NT ever questioned it by doing it, it would seems that your Church is attempting to dull the two edged sword of Gods word by claiming that there is no truth but yours, and if we quote scripture, you can simply say we dont interpret it that way.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Your Church wants the edge of Gods sword removed by making the written word no longer relevant.
JH :)
Considering that Peter himself said the vision had NOTHING to do with Kashrut, I will take his interpretation over yours any day.
I'm curious as to where any of these seven books refer to praying to Mary since they were in existence before Christ? There are some apocryphal books like "Gospel of Thomas" written by some who tried to incorporate Gnosticism into Christanity in the first century, but, if there is anything about Mary in the seven books to which you refer it would have to be prophetic.
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