Posted on 11/21/2004 2:48:08 PM PST by atari
Im catholic, but I wasnt raised in a religious household.
Im totally clueless about most Protestant denominations especially, and If any would tell me the differences between them, or point me to a site that would help, that would be great. :-)
I don't know, but you find out let me know okay? I have left my denomination too.
The way that I look at all denominations is by deciding how much of the bible that they do believe, and just how much they try to add to the bible or take from it. Some denominations do not even believe in the Old Testament, and some do not even believe in the ten commandments. Some do not know the difference between Moses law, or what God wrote on stone with his own finger.
Deut 31:24: And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
25: That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
26: Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Even though the bible is available to all people, one still has to check out things for himself, for churches steeped in false teachings, do not want to change, not even when they learn better.
Lady in Red,
You are apparently too naive to understand. We can't have too much Christian love and kindness around here on the FR Religion forum. That's ecumenical, and it's a bad thing.
You're also just too nice. Try being a little meaner once in a while, then maybe you'll be a better Christian, and you'll be able to tell others why they are heretics.
< /sarcasm>
I used to think so also. "Bible Only" was my mantra. "Just the scripture" for me, it was.
However, I decided that I needed to truly KNOW what the truth of the Church that Christ established was, so I did my research. I could go on and on (and would, if you are serious about knowing what I found), but suffice it to say that there is no doubt in my mind now, after having been to a protestant "Bible Only" church for many years, that the Catholic (Universal) Church is what Christ founded. Period.
Remember after Christ was ressurected, he was walking with two disciples that DID NOT RECOGNIZE HIM, even though they were discussing the scriptures that described the Messiah!
It was NOT UNTIL they broke bread together that it was revealed to them that He was Christ, the Son of the Living God!
This, my friends, is exactly what is truly revealed in the Catholic Mass, which is constantly being celebrated at some place on earth 24x7x365.
I was SO TIRED of disagreements in bible study and Sunday school between Elders, Pastors, and laymen, that I needed to know the unbroken truth that was taught and handed down since the time of the apostles.
The Catholic Church has been there since day 1. My church had been around for 100+ years, and today there are 38,000 + variations of Christianity. Christ prayed for UNITY for his people. Is this what we have? NO!
If anyone is interested, I can provide the names of three KEY books that prove without a doubt that the ONLY way to understand the fullness of truth of Christ is to get the truth from the source of apostolic teaching handed down since day 1: The Catholic Church.
I am SURE some will argue with me -- BELIEVE ME, I was on your side for years, until I got off my butt and decided to find out the truth.
When you realize this, there is NO going back.
I would be interested in the names of those books. Thanks.
WE CAtholics do not pray TO the Virgin Mary.
Atleast you're honest when you state the you "didn't understand the Bible and have this as your answer -
"Catholic (Universal) Church is what Christ founded. Period."
I have no difficulty understanding it and if differs from your conclusion. Catholicism sure isn't "Bible only". It's problematic to put it kindly.
from another post:
It's extremely simple....
........just like all of the different catholic churches,.....it's a question of which one is 'true' ....reigning/empire.....Israel!
All of these 'christian churches' claimed to have replaced national Israel as god's accepted/chosen people.
These churches claim to be the 'New' (reigning/spiritual) Israel now on earth.
(It's known as ...'Re-placement'... [anti-semite]... theology!)
The church is not Israel.
Believers are spiritual Israel, having the faith of Abraham (Gal3:14), but the promise to national Israel is still yet to be completed (Rom.9-11)
Didnt he marry a spaniard? Funny, the Popes and Cardinals didnt oppose the publishing of good Bibles (as cited in the Council of trent) and that the first Bible Printed (by Gutenberg) was a CATHOLIC Bible. And about leaving books out: Luther was a bitter old constipated man who thought about getting rid of St. James "straw" epistle because it didn't conform to his religious believes.
OK, religious differences in three sentences:
1. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
2. Protestants do not recognize the authority of the Pope.
3. Baptists do not recognize each other at Hooters or the liquor store.
Are you saying that you pray for God to inform her of your prayer? I've no problem with that.
I've often figured that God was the only one who could hear everything.
Hope that helps
Oh yeah, first you have to repent, or change your mind, from what you believe to believing the Gospel (death,burial, resurrection).
LOL!
To a certain extent, this is quite true, though not from lack of trying. Oftentimes, catechesis is poorly delivered or, for that matter, poorly received.
If anything, I am also astounded at the obtuse ignorance of christians regarding the Catholic Church. Perhaps we can help fill in the blanks for you and our friend, atari.
Nearly everything about Roman Catholicism is Pagan
CouncilofTrent asked you for specifics and I second that request.
That you leave Christ nailed to the cross while those who left your tradition in an effort to return to the faith of the Disciples have an empty cross.
Catholics realize and believe Jesus rose from the dead. However, it is still important to always remember what Jesus had to go through for us.
To actually see Him hanging on the cross gives us a constant reminder of what happened. Jesus was an innocent man with the purest heart, and He decided to die for all of us. He loved us then and Jesus continues to love us today. That is what we are all about and shouldn’t ever forget.
Seeing the Crucifix also gives Catholics encouragement that Jesus is always with us, and there is life after death. He rose again as He promised. Catholics often have Crucifixes in their homes or wear them on a necklace. They do this as a sign of their faith and a way to keep focused on Jesus.
That you practice Maryolatry.
Catholics believe that Christ is the only Way to the Father, and that people enter His sheepfold, ie. the Church, by Christ the Door. We call Mary the "Gate of Heaven" because she is the gate through whom Jesus came into the world from heaven, and we can also go to Jesus by her. She is not "another way" to Heaven apart from Jesus, but the one who brings us to Him so that He may then bring us to the Father. All devotions to Mary and the saints ultimately glorify their Creator, who made them what they are. Mary is God's great masterpiece, and all praise given to her is praise of Her Maker. When Elizabeth praises Mary, saying "Blessed art thou amongst women", Mary immediately replies "My soul doth magnify the Lord..." (Luke 1:42; 46). All the devotion which we offer her redounds to God's praise and glory.
That you have a Pope.
There is ample evidence in the New Testament that Peter was first in authority among the apostles. Whenever they were named, Peter headed the list (Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13); sometimes the apostles were referred to as "Peter and those who were with him" (Luke 9:32). Peter was the one who generally spoke for the apostles (Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69), and he figured in many of the most dramatic scenes (Matt. 14:28-32, Matt. 17:24-27, Mark 10:23-28). On Pentecost it was Peter who first preached to the crowds (Acts 2:14-40), and he worked the first healing in the Church age (Acts 3:6-7). It is Peter’s faith that will strengthen his brethren (Luke 22:32) and Peter is given Christ’s flock to shepherd (John 21:17). An angel was sent to announce the resurrection to Peter (Mark 16:7), and the risen Christ first appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34). He headed the meeting that elected Matthias to replace Judas (Acts 1:13-26), and he received the first converts (Acts 2:41). He inflicted the first punishment (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic (Acts 8:18-23). He led the first council in Jerusalem (Acts 15), and announced the first dogmatic decision (Acts 15:7-11). It was to Peter that the revelation came that Gentiles were to be baptized and accepted as Christians (Acts 10:46-48).
Two important things were told the apostle. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16:19). Here Peter was singled out for the authority that provides for the forgiveness of sins and the making of disciplinary rules. Later the apostles as a whole would be given similar power [Matt.18:18], but here Peter received it in a special sense. Peter alone was promised something else also: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 16:19). In ancient times, keys were the hallmark of authority. A walled city might have one great gate; and that gate had one great lock, worked by one great key. This symbolism for authority is used elsewhere in the Bible (Is. 22:22, Rev. 1:18).
That you pervert the remembrance of Christ through the ritual of Communion into the magic rite of transubstantiation.
John 6:30 begins a colloquy that took place in the synagogue at Capernaum. The Jews asked Jesus what sign he could perform so that they might believe in him. As a challenge, they noted that "our ancestors ate manna in the desert." Could Jesus top that? He told them the real bread from heaven comes from the Father. "Give us this bread always," they said. Jesus replied, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst." At this point the Jews understood him to be speaking metaphorically.
Jesus first repeated what he said, then summarized: "‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’" (John 6:51–52).
His listeners were stupefied because now they understood Jesus literally—and correctly. He again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:53–56).
Notice that Jesus made no attempt to soften what he said, no attempt to correct "misunderstandings," for there were none. Our Lord’s listeners understood him perfectly well. They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically. If they had, if they mistook what he said, why no correction?
On other occasions when there was confusion, Christ explained just what he meant (cf. Matt. 16:5–12). Here, where any misunderstanding would be fatal, there was no effort by Jesus to correct. Instead, he repeated himself for greater emphasis.
In John 6:60 we read: "Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’" These were his disciples, people used to his remarkable ways. He warned them not to think carnally, but spiritually: "It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" (John 6:63; cf. 1 Cor. 2:12–14).
But he knew some did not believe. (It is here, in the rejection of the Eucharist, that Judas fell away; look at John 6:64.) "After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him" (John 6:66).
This is the only record we have of any of Christ’s followers forsaking him for purely doctrinal reasons. If it had all been a misunderstanding, if they erred in taking a metaphor in a literal sense, why didn’t he call them back and straighten things out? Both the Jews, who were suspicious of him, and his disciples, who had accepted everything up to this point, would have remained with him had he said he was speaking only symbolically.
But he did not correct these protesters. Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have "to eat my flesh and drink my blood." John 6 was an extended promise of what would be instituted at the Last Supper—and it was a promise that could not be more explicit.
That your priests are celibate when Paul, Peter and James clearly state it should be otherwise.
Actually, some Catholic priests are married.
Although most people are at some point in their lives called to the married state, the vocation of celibacy is explicitly advocated—as well as practiced—by both Jesus and Paul.
So far from "commanding" marriage in 1 Corinthians 7, in that very chapter Paul actually endorses celibacy for those capable of it: "To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion" (7:8-9). Paul’s conclusion: He who marries "does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better" (7:38).
After Jesus’ teaching in Matthew 19 on divorce and remarriage, the disciples exclaimed, "If such is the case between a man and his wife, it is better not to marry" (Matt 19:10). This remark prompted Jesus’ teaching on the value of celibacy "for the sake of the kingdom":
"Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom it is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of God. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it" (Matt. 19:11–12).
That you even have priests at all when Christ Himself said "Call no man father."
The imperative "call no man father" does not apply to one’s biological father. It also doesn’t exclude calling one’s ancestors "father," as is shown in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of "our father Isaac." There are numerous examples in the New Testament of the term "father" being used as a form of address and reference, even for men who are not biologically related to the speaker. A careful examination of the context of Matthew 23 shows that Jesus didn’t intend for his words here to be understood literally. The whole passage reads, "But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ‘masters,’ for you have one master, the Christ" (Matt. 23:8–10).
So What Did Jesus Mean? Christ used hyperbole often, for example when he declared, "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell" (Matt. 5:29, cf. 18:9; Mark 9:47). Christ certainly did not intend this to be applied literally, for otherwise all Christians would be blind amputees! (cf. 1 John 1:8; 1 Tim. 1:15). We are all subject to "the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" (1 John 2:16).
Since Jesus is demonstrably using hyperbole when he says not to call anyone our father—else we would not be able to refer to our earthly fathers as such—we must read his words carefully and with sensitivity to the presence of hyperbole if we wish to understand what he is saying.
Christ has always emphasized the danger of false religion.
Indeed! Jesus said his Church would be "the light of the world." He then noted that "a city set on a hill cannot be hid" (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.
Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)
Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.
Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.
The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.
Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.
Sources: various
A very good exposition. I appreciate the work that you put into it. I don't have the energy to go into it point by point and I know you've already studdied everything I might say anyway.
Paul was not celibate. Perhaps in his latter years he became so but not out of any attempt to be holy. I'm sure he found his spiritual life easier without sex on his mind. No human should try and put themselves in the place of The Christ by actually attempting holiness. I believe that is what the priesthood trys to do. I also believe the scandal now ravaging the RC church is the result of this unholy practice and indeed God's judgement upon it.
Perhaps what offends me most deeply about the RC church is you insistence that YOU are The Church that Christ founded. This alone causes me actual revulsion and emotional anger. I would have to call it blasphemy.
The Body of Christ is His church and it has NOTHING to do with buildings, Popes, denominations or bureaucratic hiearchies. I know this to be a fact. I know it because everything Christ taught in His Word supports it and His Spirit within me echoes it as FACT.
You are in danger of hell's fire if you attempt to bar the smallest child from the Kingdom with your papist unchristian system.
May God here and now strike me dead if the Roman Catholic Church is the sole arbiter of Crist Jesus on earth.
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