Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Immaculate Conception of Our Lady December 8
Tradition in Action | Prof. Plinio Corręa de Oliveira

Posted on 12/07/2004 5:48:23 PM PST by Land of the Irish

The Immaculate Conception of Our Lady December 8

Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

Our Lady was conceived without original sin. She had a perfect purity, with no bad inclinations. Therefore, she had a great facility to correspond entirely with the grace of God at every moment. Natural and the supernatural grandeur merged together in her soul in a profound and extraordinary harmony. Above all others creatures, she had the highest notion of the sanctity of God and His correspondent glory. She also had the clear notion of what Creation owes to that glory. She knew, and knows, how all created beings should glorify God.

To show that Our Lady smashes all heresies, statues of the Immaculate Conception present her crushing the head of the serpent.

As a consequence, she also had a profound horror of the opposite of good, which is evil. She had a great intransigence to such evil, a complete rejection of it in its least forms and a strong combativeness against it. This is the reason Holy Scripture refers to Our Lady as “terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata,” as terrible as an army set in battle array. The Church also says that it is she alone who smashes all heresies. To celebrate this fact, in statues of the Immaculate Conception, Our Lady is crushing the head of the serpent.

The feast of her Immaculate Conception is, then, in many senses, the commemoration of her purity, her intransigence, and her combativeness.

Let us look more closely at what intransigence is. When a person has a very clear notion of what is good and an understanding of the highest expressions of this good, this person knows that the opposite is bad. It is not a theoretical knowledge, like that of a scientist who analyzes a specimen in a laboratory, but rather a knowledge that comes hand in hand with a great love for good. The person naturally recognizes the opposite of such good, which is evil, and hates evil with an intensity proportionate to the magnitude of his love for the good.

Since he loves the highest ideals that good represents, he cannot tolerate the opposite of that good, because he clearly sees the evil that exists in it. He rejects evil not only in its ensemble, but in each of its parts. He rejects evil not only when it is very intense, but when it barely appears. This is intolerance or intransigence.

The human spirit is constituted in such a way that when a man hates evil, he increases and perfects his love for the good. In a certain way the presence of something that he rejects reinforces his conviction of, and his love for the good. The human psychology is so established that such contrast makes a person more acutely aware of how the good is good. For instance, we love our counter-revolutionary vocation more when we can see concretely how the revolutionaries hate it. Seeing this, we receive a confirmation that we are taking the right position.

What is combativeness? Combativeness is a consequence of intransigence. It is to make a deliberate decision to destroy the evil that opposes the glory of God. It is a calm deliberation followed by the utilization of every means one has at his disposal to achieve that goal. It is not a fleeting resolution to fight during one single episode when evil is attacking good, but it is a permanent determination applied to all aspects of evil and throughout the life of a person. The person does not rest until evil is destroyed.

A true combativeness does not rest until evil is reduced to ashes. In Portugal there was an expression regarding evil that was applied in different ways in old Portuguese Law: Evil shall be reduced to ashes by fire. If a man committed a horrific crime, he received the sentence of capital punishment: his body was burned, and his ashes dispersed either in the air or water. This was the application of that axiom.

Here I am not advocating this punishment be applied to this or that person in this or that present day State. I am taking it as a general principle to apply to the fight of ideas and institutions. A bad man can be killed, and he is gone. But who can kill a bad idea or destroy a revolutionary conspiracy that strives to prevent God from receiving the glory He deserves and Holy Mother Church from exerting her mission on earth? For this fight we need a true combativeness that reduces the Revolution and its cohorts to ashes by fire. This kind of intransigence and combativeness were two attributes of Our Lady that were consequences of the privilege of her Immaculate Conception.

What should we ask Our Lady on this feast day? We should ask for a great love of God and a high understanding of His glory, which will, as a natural consequence, give us a great intransigence and combativeness.

I remember that St. Therese of Lisieux used to lament that she could not be a warrior and fight with a sword against the enemies of God. This is the soul of a saint. She desired to fight for God in all place and all times. This is how we should be. Let us ask Our Lady for the purity and combativeness proper to sanctity so that we might be her true sons and daughters.

Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira The Saint of the Day features highlights from the lives of saints based on comments made by the late Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira. Following the example of St. John Bosco who used to make similar talks for the boys of his College, each evening it was Prof. Plinio’s custom to make a short commentary on the lives of the next day’s saint in a meeting for youth in order to encourage them in the practice of virtue and love for the Catholic Church. TIA thought that its readers could profit from these valuable commentaries.

The texts of both the biographical data and the comments come from personal notes taken by Atila S. Guimarães from 1964 to 1995. Given the fact that the source is a personal notebook, it is possible that at times the biographic notes transcribed here will not rigorously follow the original text read by Prof. Plinio. The commentaries have also been adapted and translated for TIA’s site.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic
KEYWORDS: catholic; mary; motherofgod

1 posted on 12/07/2004 5:48:23 PM PST by Land of the Irish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway; Akron Al; Alberta's Child; Andrew65; AniGrrl; apologia_pro_vita_sua; attagirl; ...

Ping

http://www.traditioninaction.org/SOD/j105sdImmaculateConception_12-8.htm


2 posted on 12/07/2004 5:50:53 PM PST by Land of the Irish (Tradidi quod et accepi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Land of the Irish
Our Lady was conceived without original sin.

Someone's imagination gone wild. This is Satan's method for getting our eye's off Jesus - glorify someone else.

The excuse for this doctrine is that she had to be without in order to give birth to a son without sin. If she was conceived without sin, then her parents must have also been born without sin. How many generations back shall we go?

In Luke 1:46, we read,
"And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,.."

If she was without sin, she wouldn't need a savior.

3 posted on 12/07/2004 6:11:38 PM PST by aimhigh
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: aimhigh
Someone's imagination gone wild.

You're obviously not Catholic.

Move along.

5 posted on 12/07/2004 6:18:19 PM PST by Land of the Irish (Tradidi quod et accepi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: aimhigh

Our Lady leads us to her Son. She tells us to "Do whatever He says". She is the gate of Heaven that leads us to Christ. "To Him through Her." And yes, she was a creature who enjoyed the salvation of God, who is not bound by time and applied the merits of Christ's passion and death to preserve Our Lady from all stain of original sin from the moment of her conception.


6 posted on 12/07/2004 6:28:15 PM PST by Unam Sanctam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: aimhigh

aimhigh- hitlow


7 posted on 12/07/2004 6:42:26 PM PST by CouncilofTrent (Quo Primum...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: aimhigh

This is a Catholic section. I don't think you should comment on it.


8 posted on 12/07/2004 6:43:12 PM PST by CouncilofTrent (Quo Primum...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: aimhigh
My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,.."

Right. Her salvation, like her freedom from sin, was prefigured by God even before Christ's birth, death and resurrection.

9 posted on 12/07/2004 6:45:20 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: aimhigh
If she was conceived without sin, then her parents must have also been born without sin.

Applying you logic in reverse, if Mary was conceived with sin, then her Son, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was also conceived with sin.

10 posted on 12/07/2004 6:47:35 PM PST by Land of the Irish (Tradidi quod et accepi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: OptimusPrime5
Seriously Protestants are just people to lazy to be Catholic.

I've been studying my Catechism, and I am amazed at the logic, precision and integration of it all, and I've just begun to scratch the surface.

Robert Graves, of literary fame said that while he was not a Catholic himself, he viewed the Faith as most logical, and fully fleshed out. And Graves had an intellect to be reckoned with.

11 posted on 12/07/2004 6:48:14 PM PST by AlbionGirl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: OptimusPrime5; aimhigh
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is one that should be embraced by both Lutheran and Calvanist Protestants.

By Lutherans, because the dogma (although obviously not promulgated in its 1854 definition in the sixteeenth century) was never explicitly rejected by the Confession. Indeed, the emphasis on unmerited grace flowing from the one unique sacrifice of Christ make the 1854 statement very Lutheran.

Calvanists should see in this dogma an example, a prototype, if you will, of predestination. The Epistle for the Mass of this feast speaks of "God destined us in Christ before the foundation of the world...."

And since this feast celebrates the preparing of the one chosen to bear the Son of God this is every bit as appropriate an Advent theme as the other "preparer of the way", John the Baptist.
12 posted on 12/07/2004 8:26:58 PM PST by lightman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: aimhigh

Well how nice of you to come onto a Catholic thread and bash Catholic doctrine.
Why is it I never see you on SJackson or Allouette's Jewish threads bashing Jews?

Catholics are fair game, I guess.


13 posted on 12/07/2004 8:41:16 PM PST by netmilsmom (Zell on DEM Christianity, "They can hum the tune, but can't sing the song.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: aimhigh

What about the Angel Gabriel's greeting to Mary in Luke:

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you."


14 posted on 12/07/2004 9:06:59 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: AskStPhilomena; Land of the Irish; Convert from ECUSA; Salvation; Rosary; Maximilian; narses; ...

This is the mystery of Mary to which our whole country, the United States of America, was dedicated at the Sixth Provincial Council of Baltimore in 1846. The meaning of the mystery is that from the first instant of her conception in the womb of Anna, her mother, Mary was without original sin. Nothing of the guilt which Adam bestowed on the whole human race, because of his sin in the Garden of Paradise, was allowed to touch the perfect soul of the Blessed Virgin Mary. God created the soul of Mary in sheer holiness, full of every grace he could bestow on her. In our own day, which is rightly called “the age of Mary,” in the year 1854, on December 8, the courageous and holy Pope Pius IX, defined the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary as a dogma of the Catholic Faith. Anyone who does not believe in this dogma, Our Lady, in 1858, in one of her eighteen apparitions to Saint Marie Bernadette of Lourdes, a little fourteen year old girl who lived in southern France, said, by way of innocently emphasizing the papal definition of Pius IX and its meaning, not “I was immaculately conceived” but “I AM the Immaculate Conception.” This she said on the feast of the Annunciation, March 25. Mary let us know thereby that she was the very notion of this grace in the mind of God from all eternity. Mary is God’s love, His dove, His beautiful one.


15 posted on 12/08/2004 3:25:48 AM PST by Stubborn (It Is The Mass That Matters)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Stubborn; Land of the Irish; Salvation

Thanks for posting this article, LOTI! I appreciate it. Thanks to Stubborn and Salvation for their comments, you two sum it up nicely and made my morning!


16 posted on 12/08/2004 4:41:02 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (tired of shucking and jiving)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Land of the Irish

Ave Maria.


17 posted on 12/08/2004 4:46:55 AM PST by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Land of the Irish
Applying you logic in reverse, if Mary was conceived with sin, then her Son, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was also conceived with sin.

The problem with your logic is that it ignores the scriptures, which tell us that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit.

18 posted on 12/08/2004 5:49:29 AM PST by aimhigh
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Land of the Irish

I humbly submit this for consideration for all Catholics on today, DEC. 8th, when the Blessed Mother appeared to Sr. Pierina in Montichiari, Italy eleven times and has asked for an HOUR OF GRACE - noon to 1 pm - of every year. Please join me in praying for our country. I've done this hour for many years and it is indeed quite powerful. (Don't forget to print this in order to have handy for the years to come.) Thanks.

Acknowledgements: A very special Thank You to the Felician Sisters in general who printed this story in their "Ave Maria" magazine and who so graciously translated this story from Polish into English in order to comply with the request of the Blessed Virgin Mary that this message be sent throughout the world.
(For additional info on this subject: http://www.marypages.com/MontichiariEng.htm)

The Hour of Grace
December 8th from Noon to 1pm

My wish is that every year on the 8th of December, at noon, an "Hour of Grace" will be installed. Many spiritual graces and physical blessings will be received by those who pray UNDISTURBED during this hour. "THE MOST HARD-HEARTED SINNERS WILL BE TOUCHED BY THE GRACE OF GOD."

During the period of November 24, 1946 to December 8, 1947, the Blessed Mother appeared to Sr. Pierina in a little church in Montichiari, Italy, eleven times. On the first appearance, the Blessed Mother told Sr. Pierina she wanted to be known as the "Mystical Rosa", and that an hour of grace should be kept at noon on December 8th in all the Catholic churches of the world. The Blessed Mother wanted this to be known through all of Italy and the entire world.

It was November 16, 1947 when Sr. Pierina was finishing her thanksgiving after Holy Communion, when she saw a great light. She then saw a vision of the Blessed Mother as the "Mystical Rose".

Sister was so deeply moved by the stunning beauty of our Lady that she began talking to her. All of a sudden a gentle force made her kneel down in front of Our Lady. The Blessed Mother spoke these words: "My son is so greatly offended by the sins of impurity. He is already planning to send a deluge upon the people, for their destruction, but I have asked Him to show mercy and not send destruction. So that is why I have appeared, to ask for penance and atonement for the sins of impurity." Then the Blessed Mother asked for an act of humility by Sr. Pierina. She asked her to make the sign of the cross with her tongue on each of the four stones in the sanctuary. "This shall be a reminder to the people that I have appeared here, and do not have the people step on those stones."

The Blessed Mother then stepped on each of the stones so that her gown touched all four stones. On November 22nd, Sr. Pierina felt the overwhelming urge to go to church at 4:00 a.m. The Mother Superior, four sisters and a group of friends accompanied her. They were all saying the Rosary when the Blessed Mother appeared as before. She instructed Sr. Pierina to make the sign of the cross on the stones and fence them off so that no one would step on them.

Again, Our Lady asked for penance. She said: "Penance is nothing more than accepting all our crosses daily willingly. No matter how small, accept them with love." At this time she told Sr. Pierina to come again on December 8th at noon. "This will be my Hour of Grace." The sister asked how she was to prepare for this Hour of Grace. To which the Blessed Mother said, "With prayers and penance. Pray the 51st Psalm with outstretched arms three times. During the Hour of Grace, many spiritual graces will be granted. THE MOST HARD-HEARTED SINNERS WILL BE TOUCHED BY THE GRACE OF GOD."

THE BLESSED VIRGIN PROMISED THAT WHATEVER A PERSON ASKED HER FOR DURING THIS HOUR OF GRACE (EVEN IN IMPOSSIBLE CASES) WOULD BE GRANTED TO THEM, IF IT WAS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE WILL OF THE ETERNAL FATHER.

It was December 7th when Sr. Pierina felt the urge to go to church. This time she was accompanied by the priest and the Mother Superior. The Blessed Mother appeared with a young boy and girl dressed in beautiful white clothing. Sister was sure these little ones were angels because they were so beautiful.

The Blessed Mother said: "Tomorrow I will show you My Immaculate Heart which is so little known among the people." She asked people to pray for Russia. "There are so many people being held prisoners which their families know nothing of, because they have been gone for so many years. Pray for the conversion of Russia. The suffering of the soldiers and their sacrifices and martyrdom will bring peace to Italy. The little children are Francisco and Jacinta. I am giving them to you as your companions. You will have much to suffer for my sake. I want simplicity and goodness from you, as of these little children." The Blessed Mother then blessed Sr. Pierina, the priest and all those who were gathered there.

On the morning of December 8th, people began arriving at the little church at 8:00 a.m. from neighboring towns. By noon, some 10,000 people had gathered to see the Blessed Mother, many of whom had to stand outside because the church did not have enough room for the large crowd.

Sr. Pierina was accompanied to church by her mother and brothers, the Mother Superior, and the Chief of Police from Montichiari. Sister was reciting the Rosary with the crowd in the middle of the Church. Suddenly, a brilliant white light appeared from the ceiling. Stairs were coming from the light down to the floor of the church, about fifteen feet in length. The staircase was beautifully decorated with red, white and yellow roses. The Blessed Virgin appeared so radiant, dressed in white, with her hands folded. She was standing on a splendid carpet at the top of the stairs, made of the red, white and yellow roses.

In the most gentle and loving voice, our Lady smiled and began to speak, "I am the Immaculate Conception, the Mother of all graces, and the Mother of my Beloved Son, JESUS. I want to be known as the Mystical Rose. My wish is that every year on the 8th of December, at noon, an "Hour of Grace" will be installed. Many spiritual graces and physical blessings will be received by those who pray UNDISTURBED during this hour.

Then slowly, she began to descend the staircase, gracefully scattering roses as she went along until she reached midway of the staircase. Here again the Blessed Mother spoke, "I am very happy to see this great demonstration of faith."

Sr. Pierina asked for many of the sinners to be forgiven. The Blessed Mother replied: "My Divine Son will show His greatest Mercies as much as the people will pray for them. I want this to be known and told to Pope Pius XII. Tell him I want him to install the "Hour of Grace" throughout the whole world, and even those who are not able to go to church during this hour will receive the same graces by praying during this time in their homes at noon time."

She also asked that a Statue be made and placed on the spot where she stood. This should be called the "Rosa Mystica", and be carried in a procession through the town, at which time many graces will be given and cures will take place. Then the statue is to be returned to the church.

Our Lady prayed for the sick, some were cured, others not. Many men, women and children were cured at that very instant. A 26 year old woman who could not say a word for nine months, suddenly began shouting "I see Her, I see the Blessed Virgin." An 18 year old girl with ulcers was instantly cured. A 5 year old boy who had been paralized was told by the Blessed Mother, "Come to Me, you will be walking now." He was placed on the blessed stones and was able to walk.

There were three others who were very sick and were immediately cured. But of course, the greatest miracles taking place were those of the spiritual blessings shed upon the people gathered in the church.

The Blessed Mother said, "This is the last time I will appear here. Pray, weep and do penance on these stones, and you will receive the care of my "Motherly Heart". She then left the little church, but because of the unending love of our Heavenly Mother, she has given us the "Hour of Grace" to be spread throughout the entire world. She has given us all the opportunity to demonstrate our love and trust to her and to help make reparation for the grievous sins offending her Beloved Son, our Lord JESUS CHRIST.


REQUEST OF THE BLESSED MOTHER FOR THE HOUR OF GRACE

1. Day and time of the Hour of Grace: December 8th, Feast of the Immaculate Conception, to be started at 12 noon and continuing until 1:00 p.m. for one full hour of prayer.
2. During this hour, the person making the "Hour of Grace" either at home or at Church must put away all distractions (do not answer the telephones, or answer any doors, or do anything but totally concentrate on your union with God during this special Hour of Grace.
3. Begin the Hour of Grace by praying three times the 51st Psalm with out- stretched arms. (Psalm 51 is printed below)
4. The rest of the Hour of Grace may be spent in silent communication with God meditating upon the Passion of Jesus, saying the Holy Rosary, praising God in your own way, or by using favorite prayers, singing hymns, meditating upon other psalms, etc.

Please copy and distribute this message. Remember to pray for your country during this hour. The Blessed Virgin has requested that her important message be sent throughout the entire world. Please help her Mission well...that all souls be drawn to GOD and that JESUS will be loved in every heart. This is the perpetual song of her heart. Let it also be ours.

PSALM 51

1. Have mercy on me, O God, in your faithful love, in your great tenderness wipe away my offences;
2. wash me thoroughly from my guilt, purify me from my sin.
3. For I am well aware of my offences, my sin is constantly in mind.
4. Against you, you alone, I have sinned, I have done what you see to be wrong, that you may show your saving justice when you pass sentence, and your victory may appear when you give judgement,
5. remember, I was born guilty, a sinner from the moment of conception.
6. But you delight in sincerity of heart, and in secret you teach me wisdom.
7. Purify me with hyssop till I am clean, wash me till I am whiter than snow.
8. Let me hear the sound of joy and gladness, and the bones you have crushed will dance.
9. Turn away your face from my sins, and wipe away all my guilt.
10. God, create in me a clean heart, renew within me a resolute spirit,
11. do not thrust me away from your presence, do not take away from me your spirit of holiness.
12. Give me back the joy of your salvation, sustain in me a generous spirit.
13. I shall teach the wicked your paths, and sinners will return to you.
14. Deliver me from bloodshed, God, God of my salvation, and my tongue will acclaim your saving justice.
15. Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will speak out your praise.
16. Sacrifice gives you no pleasure, burnt offering you do not desire.
17. Sacrifice to God is a broken spirit, a broken, contrite heart you never scorn.
18. In your graciousness do good to Zion, rebuild the walls of Jerusalem.
19. Then you will delight in upright sacrifices, --burnt offerings and whole oblations -- and young bulls will be offered on your altar.

Third Order Carmelites
P. O. Box 845
Marshfield, Wisconsin 54449
USA


19 posted on 12/08/2004 6:21:38 AM PST by LibSnubber (liberal democrats are domestic terrorists)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: aimhigh; Land of the Irish; OptimusPrime5; Unam Sanctam; CouncilofTrent; Canticle_of_Deborah; ...
The problem with your logic is that it ignores the scriptures, which tell us that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, but if you believe in the hypostatic union (just a fancy way of saying that Christ was fully God and fully man at the same time), and you believe the Scriptural geneology that is included in the Gospels, then you should believe that Jesus "took His flesh" of the Virgin Mary. In a more "scientific" way, Mary's ova, which only had half the chromosones needed for a new human life, was "made complete," through the power of the Holy Ghost, and at that moment, Jesus was conceived. If you believe that Mary was "just a vessel," then you are basically saying that Jesus wasn't a true member of God's Chosen People, because you need to be truly descended from a Jewish mother to be Jewish! The Messiah had to be born from the descendants of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, otherwise the Scripture passage that says "There shall come forth a rod out of the root of Jesse... and the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him" (Isaiah 11), along with many other prophecies concerning the Messiah, would be lying.

In conclusion, if the Messiah needed to be truly descended from a Jewish mother to be Jewish, and this Jewish mother had the stain of original sin upon her (since she would be descended of Adam), then that stain would have to be passed on to Jesus. There's no escaping that if you believe He is true Man, and is descended of Abraham. The Father, in His great Wisdom and sense, knew what needed to be done in order for His Son to be born. That is why Mary had to preserved from original sin.

20 posted on 12/08/2004 6:49:15 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: LibSnubber
Hey, I like this. Undisturbed, though... that's a tall order. Hey, somebody out there, ask Mary to give me the day off. If I get the day off, I could do this right.
21 posted on 12/08/2004 6:50:21 AM PST by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: pascendi

Do you have a lunch hour? Perhaps you might. If you're sincere in wanting to do this hour, a way might be found. With God, all things are possible.

A few years ago, my father was diagnosed with advanced cancer and given 3 mos. to live (by several different doctors). I did this hour for him, in addition to the other things I prayed for. I was blessed to have my dad with me for 2 1/2 more years, not 3 months. I believe part of the reason he proved all the doctors wrong was this Hour of Grace.


22 posted on 12/08/2004 6:58:37 AM PST by LibSnubber (liberal democrats are domestic terrorists)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: LibSnubber

If a door opens, I'll walk through it. Thanks for posting this.


23 posted on 12/08/2004 7:25:42 AM PST by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: pascendi

You are most welcome, my FRiend!


24 posted on 12/08/2004 7:47:28 AM PST by LibSnubber (liberal democrats are domestic terrorists)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: aimhigh
Do you seriously think you are having an impact on anyone?

Funny that you attempt to "correct" the thinking the original Christians (i.e. Catholics) from your perspective of cheap-after-market-Christianity (i.e. Protestantism.)

Go away, degrading the mother of Jesus will get you nowhere.

25 posted on 12/08/2004 8:25:52 AM PST by Pio (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Pio

" Go away, degrading the mother of Jesus will get you nowhere."

Amen, Pio!


26 posted on 12/08/2004 8:39:00 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (tired of shucking and jiving)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Convert from ECUSA; murron; JMJ333; Pyro7480; Coleus; sinkspur; Tantumergo; nickcarraway; ...
The Immaculate Conception of Our Lady December 8

Mary's Immaculate Conception: A Memorable Anniversary

Ineffabilis Deus: 8 December 1854 (Dogma of the Immaculate Conception)

Why do we believe in the Immaculate Conception?

John Paul II goes to Lourdes; reflections on the Immaculate Conception

Your Praises We Sing--on the Dogma of the Proclamation of the Immaculate Conception, Dec. 8th

Eastern Christianity and the Immaculate Conception (Q&A From EWTN)

Memorandum on the Immaculate Conception [Newman]

On The Feast of The Immaculate Conception, The Patroness of the US, We Must Pray For Our Country[Read only]

27 posted on 12/08/2004 8:46:40 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: aimhigh; Pyro7480
The problem with your logic is that it ignores the scriptures, which tell us that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit.

From the Angelus (a prayer said by many Catholics three times a day):

V. The Angel of the Lord declared unto Mary.
R. And she conceived of the Holy Ghost.

28 posted on 12/08/2004 10:03:17 AM PST by Land of the Irish (Tradidi quod et accepi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Pio; aimhigh; CouncilofTrent; Land of the Irish; OptimusPrime5

"Seriously Protestants are just people to lazy to be Catholic."

"cheap-after-market-Christianity (i.e. Protestantism.)"

"Someone's imagination gone wild"



Very nice, guys. I'm sure any "lurkers" out there are feeling the love of Jesus in this thread.


"This is a Catholic section. I don't think you should comment on it."

It's a public board, guys. As far as the board rules go, no post is immune from comment as long as the comment doesn't involve "profanity, personal attacks, racism, or violence", correct? (and aimhigh, your "imagination gone wild is out-of-line, IMO). So, if you post something concerning RC doctrine, expect us pesky Prots to pipe up. Scripture DEMANDS that we test all doctrines against Scripture. Yes, I realize the RCC considers Tradition to be equal with Scripture- but certainly it can't CONTRADICT scripture- and that is one of the areas we can debate vigorously (but always civily). I'll tell you what, I can't speak for all Protestants on this board, but if you put "CATHOLICS ONLY" in the subject of a topic, I won't respond. That will signal to me (and others) that you are unwilling and/or unable to debate the merits of your post. Fair enough? Again, we have to keep in mind there are "lurkers" out there to be won to Christ. Mean-spirited posts will never do that. End of rant.

A blessed Christmas to all!






29 posted on 12/08/2004 10:52:09 AM PST by armydoc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Land of the Irish

BUMP


30 posted on 12/08/2004 10:54:27 AM PST by nickcarraway
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: armydoc
(and aimhigh, your "imagination gone wild is out-of-line, IMO)

I'll concede that. My apologies.
Considering the number of negative Catholic responses I've seen to Protestant postings, it's interesting that Catholics think that their doctrines can't be debated.

31 posted on 12/08/2004 12:25:43 PM PST by aimhigh
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: aimhigh
This is Satan's method for getting our eye's off Jesus - glorify someone else.

Since the IC is -- Catholic dogma insists -- a prior application of the foreseen merits of the crucified Christ, what we are really glorifying is Christ's salvific work perfectly exemplified in his mother.

You think it's Satanic to praise and celebrate the salvific work of Christ?

Catholic doctrine can be debated, but I have no idea why any Protestant would want to debate this one. You think God can't make a sinless Jewish girl? Does his omnipotence have limits, then?

32 posted on 12/08/2004 12:50:14 PM PST by Campion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Campion
You think God can't make a sinless Jewish girl?

The scriptures say that ALL have sinned, except Christ who was without sin. Why send a savior if sinners (Mary's parents) can have sinless offspring? Sin is passed down through the male seed, not the woman's seed. For Jesus to be born without sin didn't require a sinless mother.

33 posted on 12/08/2004 12:55:22 PM PST by aimhigh
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: aimhigh
The scriptures say that ALL have sinned, except Christ who was without sin.

Paul is using hyperbole. Babies haven't sinned, but still need a savior. Ditto for Mary.

Why send a savior if sinners (Mary's parents) can have sinless offspring?

Because they can't do so on their own, but only through the merits of Christ. (Did you even read what I wrote?)

Sin is passed down through the male seed, not the woman's seed.

Unbiblical Protestant misunderstanding. Original sin isn't a "thing" that is "passed down"; it's the lack of a thing that should have been passed down.

For Jesus to be born without sin didn't require a sinless mother.

I agree, but we never said otherwise.

34 posted on 12/08/2004 1:00:21 PM PST by Campion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: armydoc
Somehow you forgot to quote the person who denounced the IC as Satanic.

You can take a hike too.

Come debate anytime...you'll be blown right out of the water by my more eloquent and educated brothers...smear Christian Doctrine as Satanic and you'll get me.

There is no Salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church..put that in your pipe and smoke it.

36 posted on 12/08/2004 1:12:33 PM PST by Pio (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

Did I order him not to comment? No. I merely suggested he not comment. There is a difference.


37 posted on 12/08/2004 1:40:21 PM PST by CouncilofTrent (Quo Primum...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Pio

As your tagline states "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus"!


38 posted on 12/08/2004 1:43:27 PM PST by CouncilofTrent (Quo Primum...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Pio

"Somehow you forgot to quote the person who denounced the IC as Satanic.
You can take a hike too.
Come debate anytime...you'll be blown right out of the water by my more eloquent and educated brothers...smear Christian Doctrine as Satanic and you'll get me.
There is no Salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church..put that in your pipe and smoke it."


Yes, I overlooked the "satanic" remark. Consider it rebuked.

I will not "take a hike", because I do so enjoy debating pleasant folks like you!

I agree that you and your brothers are "eloquent and educated", and might I add humble!

I understand the RCC's position that salvation is confined to the RCC. If that is true, you're "good to go". Myself and fellow Prots, then, are doomed to hell. May I commend you on an excellent job of trying to bring us back into the fold!

May God bless you and yours, and have a joyous Christmas!


39 posted on 12/08/2004 1:45:38 PM PST by armydoc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: armydoc
I understand the RCC's position that salvation is confined to the RCC. If that is true, you're "good to go". Myself and fellow Prots, then, are doomed to hell.

That may be Pio's position, but it's not the position that the Church takes. God judges you on what you willfully do that is wrong, and if your Protestantism is an honest effort to serve him, heaven is not closed to you. On the other hand, if (for instance) you believe Catholicism is true but stay a Protestant so you don't have to resign your country-club membership ... uh-oh.

There will be many good and righteous Protestants in heaven, and many false-brethren "Catholics" in hell. But once they get to heaven, all the Prots are certainly part of the "Catholic" (=universal) church, and none of those in hell are part of it any longer.

40 posted on 12/08/2004 2:43:35 PM PST by Campion
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Campion
"That may be Pio's position, but it's not the position that the Church takes."

Wrong. Pio's position is the Church's infallible doctrine.

"God judges you on what you willfully do that is wrong, and if your Protestantism is an honest effort to serve him, heaven is not closed to you."

Only if they enter the Church before death. If you say otherwise, then you would be speaking heresy.

41 posted on 12/08/2004 4:45:44 PM PST by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: armydoc
"I understand the RCC's position that salvation is confined to the RCC. If that is true, you're "good to go". Myself and fellow Prots, then, are doomed to hell. May I commend you on an excellent job of trying to bring us back into the fold!"

Let me grab my calculator. Obstinate denial of divinely revealed doctrines + bein' a real affable dood = salvation?

42 posted on 12/08/2004 4:54:14 PM PST by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Marcellinus; armydoc; Campion
Here's what's going to happen.

Armydoc is going put on this humble approach, playing it slick and nice and well meaning and all. But he's going to come into a Catholic subject thread, alright, and place it off center.

Catholics, naturally defensive of their Mother, take umbrage at this. This is opportunity to tell us all how uncharitable we are. Never mind that real charity, first and foremost, is upholding the Catholic truth. Especially truths touching upon the very epicenter of salvation.

At this point it is no longer a theological or spiritual topic. It's an emotional, subjective and personal one.

So now Campion is going to yield some ground on doctrine, in order to make armydoc feel a little more comfortable. Of course, no matter how accommodating Campion is to armydoc, armydoc wasn't in the market for Catholic doctrine in the first place.

So the net result for Campion will be that he loses ground on immutable principle.

The net result for armydoc is that he has, in classic liberal style, moved to portray the Thesis, that is, Catholic doctrine (two doctrines total, this thread), as something unreasonable and undesirable.

Alright. One doctrine questioned, another doctrine compromised, and we are well on our way to synthesizing a false centrism in the mind of the Watchers.

By all means, continue. This should be interesting.

It's still December 8th, though.

43 posted on 12/08/2004 5:14:40 PM PST by pascendi (Quicumque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: aimhigh

The Epistle of the Mass of the Catholic Church for the Feast Day of the Immaculate Conception:

Proverbs 8;22-35

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning. 23 I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. 24 The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived. neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: 25 The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:

26 He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: 28 When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: 29 When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth; 30 I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times;

31 Playing in the world: and my delights were to be with the children of men. 32 Now therefore, ye children, hear me: Blessed are they that keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, and that watcheth daily at my gates, and waiteth at the posts of my doors. 35 He that shall find me, shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord:


44 posted on 12/08/2004 7:30:04 PM PST by Land of the Irish (Tradidi quod et accepi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Campion
"For Jesus to be born without sin didn't require a sinless mother." aimhigh

"I agree, but we never said otherwise." Campion

Aimhigh did just such a thing in post #3:

If she was conceived without sin, then her parents must have also been born without sin.

45 posted on 12/08/2004 8:35:43 PM PST by Land of the Irish (Tradidi quod et accepi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Campion
"That may be Pio's position, but it's not the position that the Church takes."

Read the Catechism...new or old..I'm not making this stuff up, this is not my position. (n.b. the new catechism makes provisions for people who have never heard of Jesus Christ.)

Your position is entirely protestant, it has no basis in Christian Doctrine. The concept of salvation you put forth is pure heresy, it is Universalism.

Get thee to a Unitarian Church

46 posted on 12/09/2004 4:55:09 AM PST by Pio (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: armydoc
"I understand the RCC's position that salvation is confined to the RCC."

Being inside the Church is necessary but not sufficient. Get it? No one can be sure of their salvation while they're still breathing. Only the born-agains seem to express their utmost confidence in their personal salvation. Catholics work it out, they pray, fear God, worship Jesus, obey the Commandments, repent when they sin and then pray some more.

There are provisions made for people who have never heard of Jesus Christ.

There are ways to challenge Christians about their ideas. We invented the University. You won't meet a bunch of people more willing to kick around ideas. (Hence our numerical domination of freepnet.) Can you open your mind to the concept that defaming Marian devotion (which has been a Christian practice that long predates any "denomination") as Satanic can rile people?

Again, I say, denouncing Mary (and what she tells us to do) as Satanic will get you nowhere with Christians nor with Christ.

47 posted on 12/09/2004 5:12:31 AM PST by Pio (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson