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The Mother of the Son: The Case for Marian Devotion
CatholicEducatorsResourceCenter.org ^ | 2004 | Mark Shea

Posted on 12/09/2004 10:15:01 PM PST by Salvation

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To: Sybeck1
See my post #17 above, and this thread: Catholic Encyclopedia: Immaculate Conception (The Doctrine and Its Roots)
21 posted on 12/10/2004 6:51:23 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Pyro7480

I believe that Mary was "just a vessel" and I believe that Jesus was one of God's Chosen people.


22 posted on 12/10/2004 6:51:47 AM PST by PleaseNoMore
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To: PleaseNoMore

My apologies for the double posting. The original reply didn't show up even with numerous refreshes of my browser.


23 posted on 12/10/2004 6:52:29 AM PST by PleaseNoMore
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To: PleaseNoMore

Well, given what I just argued, your statement doesn't make sense.


24 posted on 12/10/2004 6:55:41 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: pieces of time

My mother always told me that I should pray through Mary, because a good Son always listens to His mother.


25 posted on 12/10/2004 6:59:05 AM PST by Hoodlum91
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To: All

I'm Glad You Asked
Questions from the parishioners of
St. Charles Borromeo Catholic Church
Picayune, Mississippi







MARY
Many non-Catholic Christians do not understand what Catholics believe about Mary and why. As a result, Catholic Marian beliefs have become a focal point in questions about the Catholic Church. If it can be shown that even one Marian belief is not true, then the Catholic claim of infallible teaching is wrong.

Q. My friends want to know and don't understand why we worship Mary and place her as high as God.
Q. Do Catholics worship Mary above Jesus?
Q. Do Catholics worship Mary?

To non-Catholics, the honor shown to Mary appears to be nothing other than the worship of Mary. This would place Mary on a level with God and be a violation of the First Commandment. Some non-Catholics have even gone so far as to coin the word "Mariolotry" for the Catholic devotion given to Mary. In fact, Catholic worship is reserved only for God. The Catholic Church even has special words for all this: latria is the worship offered and due to God alone, and dulia is the veneration given to the saints, including Mary [although hyperdulia (more than dulia, but far less than latria) is the term applied to the honor given to Mary]. The words "latria," "dulia" and "hyperdulia" can be confusing to the layperson however, even though they come from the New Testament Greek, because we don't commonly use them (and they can appear to be nothing but smoke-and-mirrors to the non-Catholic who has never heard of them before).

The first question puts this whole area of discussion in perspective. Protestants, in their worship services, offer songs and praise and prayer to God; this is their highest form of worship. Since they don't have a priesthood, they have nothing else they can offer. Catholics on the other hand, offer the Sacrifice of the Mass to God. Our offering of sacrifice is made only to God and is our form of worship. This allows us to give lesser things such as songs and praise and prayer to those who can pray in our behalf before God: the saints and especially the Blessed Virgin Mary. When the Protestants see us offering what is their highest form of worship to someone other than God, it appears to them that we are worshiping someone other than God.

Why all this special attention given to Mary? Because she is Jesus' mother, the person who gave Him all His genetically human characteristics. Normally, a person gets their genetic characteristics from both the father and the mother but in the case of Jesus there was no human father to provide the genes which would be combined with Mary's. Mary is honored because God honored her by choosing her to be the mother of Jesus. All Catholic doctrines concerning Mary are related to and emerge from our understanding of her Son. Mary has no significance apart from Jesus. Mary says in Holy Scripture "from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" (Luke 1:48 KJV).

Finally, let's look at Mary from Jesus' perspective. Jesus was a Hebrew; a perfect Hebrew who kept all the feasts, worshiped in the Temple, and most importantly, kept the commandments. This would have included the commandment to "honor thy father and thy mother" (Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:16). In Hebrew, the word "honor" means "glorify." Jesus would have glorified not only His Father, but as the perfect Hebrew, He would have honored His mother as well. When a Catholic gives honor to Mary, they are imitating Jesus. After all, Holy Scripture tells us:


"Be imitators of God" (Ephesians 5:1, NIV)
"You became imitators of us and of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 1:6, NIV).

Recommended reading:
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1994, paragraphs 971, 2096-2097, 2683-2684
Keating, Karl, Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, CA, 1988, pages 280-281
Schreck, Alan, Catholic and Christian, Servant Books, Ann Arbor, MI, 1984, pages 163-189
Currie, David B., Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, CA, 1996, pages 155-177
Roberts, Fr. Kenneth J., Up On The Mountain, Paraclete Press, Orleans MA, 1992, pages 69-97
Rumble, Rev. Dr. Leslie & Carty, Rev. Charles Mortimer, Radio Replies, Second Volume, TAN Books & Publishers, Rockford, IL 61105, 1979, paragraphs 668-674




Q. Why do Catholics have to have Mary to intercede for us when we pray?

Catholics do not "have to have" Mary intercede for us. We can, and do, pray directly to God. However, we also recognize that having someone provide intercessory prayer for us is very beneficial. Few people feel uncomfortable about asking their friend or neighbor to pray for them, especially in time of need; after all, two prayers are better than one. Mary is, and always will be, the mother of Jesus. As a mother, she has certain rights and privileges and this is why we ask her to intercede for us. Every prayer addressed to Mary is in reality a prayer asking a favor from God.

Recommended reading:
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1994, paragraphs 969, 975
Rumble, Rev. Dr. Leslie & Carty, Rev. Charles Mortimer, Radio Replies, First Volume, TAN Books & Publishers, Rockford, IL 61105, 1979, paragraphs 1408-1416
Rumble, Rev. Dr. Leslie & Carty, Rev. Charles Mortimer, Radio Replies, Third Volume, TAN Books & Publishers, Rockford, IL 61105, 1979, paragraphs 1321-1328




Q. Why call Mary the Mother of God?

Because that is who she is. The title "Mother of God" was first formally applied to Mary by the Church at the Council of Ephesus in A.D. 431. This council was the 3rd ecumenical council of the Church. An ecumenical council is a general meeting of all the bishops of the Church whose (the council's) works are approved by a pope. The Council of Ephesus was called to answer the heresy of Nestorianism (which denied that Jesus was a person who was both fully divine and fully human), and the heresy of Pelagianism (which held that man could earn his own salvation through his natural powers). Pope Celestine I approved the works of this council.

The New Testament documents the fulfillment of the Old Testament. In this regard, Abraham is called the father of all believers because he is the first to have unconditionally said "yes" to God throughout his life and willingly offered his son as sacrifice. Likewise, Mary is called the mother of all believers because she is the first to have unconditionally said "yes" to God and bore Him the Son who was sacrificed for us all. God chose Mary to be the mother of His Son (Luke 1:31-32). Without the assent of this human woman, the birth of Jesus would not have taken place. Jesus has God as His father and Mary as His mother. Because she is Jesus' mother, the one who gave birth to Him, and because Jesus is God (one person both fully human and fully divine), Mary is called the "Mother of God."

All of this said, the title "Mother of God" is not without Biblical basis. In Holy Scripture it is recorded that Elizabeth says to Mary:


"But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43, NIV).
"Lord" was a common name for God among the Old Testament Jews and the Jews of Jesus' time. For example, Jesus in Matthew 4:7 says "Do not put the Lord your God to the test" (NIV), and in Luke 1:6 it is said of Zechariah and Elizabeth "Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly" (NIV). In fact, every ocurrence of "Lord" in Luke 1 is a direct reference to God. Elizabeth is actually addressing Mary as the "Mother of my God."

Many people today are disturbed by the title "Mother of God" although they have no problem with the title "Mother of Jesus." They then portray Mary as giving birth only to the human nature of Jesus. The problem with this approach is that Jesus is a person who possesses concurrently both human and divine natures. To ascribe only one nature would be a return to the Nestorian heresy. Mary gave birth to a person who was not a schizophrenic, sometimes human and sometimes divine, but fully human and divine at the same time. The natures cannot be separated. Mary gave birth to the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity who is God.

Recommended reading:
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1994, paragraphs 466, 495, 2677
Mateo, Father, Refuting The Attack On Mary; A Defense of Marian Doctrines, Catholic Answers, San Diego, CA 92177, undated
Fox, Father Robert J., Protestant Fundamentalism and the Born Again Catholic, Fatima Family Apostolate, Alexandria, SD 57311, 1991, pages 157-187




Q. How do you know that Mary is not Satan's helper to get people away from God?

It is assumed that the person asking this question is not questioning Mary's role in bringing Jesus into being on earth, but instead is questioning the reported Marian apparitions since that time. The best way to resolve this question is to look at the test which Jesus Himself gave us. In Holy Scripture Jesus says:


"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:15-16, KJV).
Likewise, St. John tells us:


"Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Whereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God" (1 John 4:1-2, KJV).
All the approved Marian apparitions have the common themes of amend your life, pray, make reparation for your sins, turn to Jesus for consolation. These are all good fruits and are from God.

All this said, no Catholic is required to believe any of the Marian apparitions. The Church has approved only a few of the reported apparitions of Mary such as those at Fatima in Portugal, Lourdes in France, Beauraing in Belgium, Akita in Japan, and Betania in Venezuela. Catholics are obligated as an article of faith to accept all public (or general) revelation. All public revelation ceased with the death of the last Apostle. All the Marian apparitions are private revelations and as such are binding only on the recipients. Approval simply means that the apparition does not teach things contrary to public revelation and is therefore worthy of belief.

Recommended reading:
Keating, Karl, What Catholics Really Believe -- Setting The Record Straight, Servant Publications, Ann Arbor, MI 48107, 1992, pages 72-76




Q. How can a virgin become a mother?

This is one of the mysteries of our faith. Even Mary and Joseph wondered how this could be:


"‘How will this be,' Mary asked the angel, ‘since I am a virgin?'" (Luke 1:34, NIV)
"Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly." (Matthew 1:19, NIV)

This is called a "mystery" because we cannot fully explain it. We know from Holy Scripture that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and the power of the Most High overcame her (Luke 1:35). This is how Jesus was conceived rather than through the normal manner of sexual intercourse. The exact biology of what happened is unexplainable except as a miraculous intervention by God.

Mary's virgin birth is foretold in Genesis 3:15:


"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (KJV).
Note that this is the only place in the Bible, and in fact in any of the writings of that time where "seed" (the Greek word is spermatas) is attributed to a woman. In all other places "seed" is considered to be a characteristic of the man. The virgin birth is also foretold in Isaiah 7:14:


"Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son, and shall call his name Immanuel" (KJV).


Q. Why believe Mary was forever virgin and sinless?

Both these beliefs have been held by the Church since the earliest times. In the case of Mary's perpetual virginity, this belief is based on Holy Scripture:


"How can this be since I know not man?" (Luke 1:34, KJV).
Mary is not asking for instructions in sexual reproduction, she no doubt has a good idea of how babies are made. She is, at this point in her life, married to Joseph although they do not yet live together. The Scriptures tell us that the angel said "you will be with child" (Luke 1:31), not "you are with child." The angel is talking about a future event and the normal result of sexual relations in marriage after she and Joseph lived together would have been a child. Mary's statement in Luke 1:34 makes no sense unless there is a vow of lifelong virginity involved, even in marriage.

The Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament contained the word of God (the tablets containing the commandments). Likewise, Mary's womb was the Ark of the New Covenant which was used to hold the Incarnate Word of God.

Now let's look at the issue of Mary's sinless nature. Consider that when the angel addresses Mary at the annunciation, the greeting is almost a name change:


"Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women" (Luke 1:28, KJV).
Mary (Miriam in Hebrew) means "beloved." In biblical times a person's name reflected what they were. Name changes have great theological significance in the Bible and this is almost as if her name is being changed from "beloved" to "thou that art highly favored." Since this is before Jesus has been conceived, to what is the angel referring? No doubt to her singular devotion to God, forsaking all earthly distractions and desecrations, and the fact that she had been conceived without sin in preparation for this event.

Being conceived without sin does not mean that Mary had no need of a redeemer. In fact, like every descendant of Adam, Mary had vital need of a redeemer. Mary's freedom from original sin was an unmerited gift of God in that she was redeemed by Christ at the moment of her conception. It is at the moment of conception that God creates the soul and hers was created in a state of sanctifying grace. If you had the opportunity to create your mother, wouldn't you make her perfect in every way? This is why there are the doctrines of the perpetual virginity and immaculate conception of Mary.

Jesus refers to Mary's sinless nature when He addresses her as "woman" in John 2:4 and 19:26. Today, one looks at Him addressing her in this manner and thinks this is disrespectful or that He is admonishing her. In fact, Mary was not the first sinless woman, Adam's wife was also created sinless. When she was first created, Adam named her "woman" (Genesis 2:23). It was after the fall, when she was no longer sinless, that her name was changed to "Eve" (Genesis 3:20). By referring to Mary as "woman," Jesus is recognizing her sinless nature. Like I said earlier, name changes in Holy Scripture are important.

Recommended reading:
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1994, paragraphs 411, 496-507, 510
Ott, Dr. Ludwig, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, TAN Books and Publishers, Rockford, IL 61105, 1974, pages 199-207
Keating, Karl, Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, CA, 1988, pages 268-272, 282-289
Currie, David B., Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, CA, 1996, pages 155-177


26 posted on 12/10/2004 7:03:28 AM PST by No_Outcome_But_Victory (Please pray for Ann, my pregnant wife. (High risk pregnancy.))
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To: Pyro7480

Because of your dogma, to you, probobly not. To me it does.


27 posted on 12/10/2004 7:03:37 AM PST by PleaseNoMore
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To: PleaseNoMore
I pray to the Father THROUGH Christ, my mediator and intercessor. I see no scriptural basis or examples for asking the dead to interceed on our behalf. If you know of any, please lay it out here and I will study it with the Holy Spirit being my interpretor.

That's part of the problem, since the Protestant Bible cut out the deuterocanonical books which have Scriptural passages which Catholics refer to in these teachings.

28 posted on 12/10/2004 7:03:58 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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To: Salvation

"**Part of the problem, I came to realize, was that Evangelical fears about Mary are visceral and not entirely theological. Indeed, much of the conflict between Catholics and Evangelicals is cultural, not theological. Evangelical culture (whether you're a man or a woman) is overwhelmingly masculine, while Catholic culture (again, whether you're a man or a woman) is powerfully feminine. And the two groups often mistake their cultural differences for theological ones.**

I have never thought about these differences in this manner before. Wow! Makes sense!"

I couldn't agree more. It hit me in "The Passion of the Christ" While I was horrified and moved by the torture of Jesus, it was Mary I really felt for, having to watch her son, the son of God and Man, go through that. It is always harder to watch someone you love get hurt than to endure it yourself.

Also, I noticed that all the characters that offered comfort to Jesus were women. The men were the torturers and betrayers (Judas, John). As someone still trying to find my spiritual path, I am quite disturbed at the misogynist teachings of most protestant sects. I have issues with catholic doctrine too, so I guess I just will continue on my own...


29 posted on 12/10/2004 7:05:52 AM PST by Hoodlum91
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To: No_Outcome_But_Victory

She isn't my mother. I respect her for her place in biblical history but do not revere her any more than I revere Abraham, David, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, John etc.


30 posted on 12/10/2004 7:06:24 AM PST by PleaseNoMore
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To: Salvation; xsmommy
The Church is repeating, in effect, that the God who loves the world does not will that our fate be the oven, the mass grave, the abortuary, the anonymity of the factory, the brothel, the cubicle, or the street

Check this out. Rather similar, but put together much better than what I was saying.

31 posted on 12/10/2004 7:11:35 AM PST by NeoCaveman (Harry Reid is an embarrasment to the Senate)
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To: PleaseNoMore; Hoodlum91

#30 meant for Hoodlum?


32 posted on 12/10/2004 7:13:01 AM PST by No_Outcome_But_Victory (Please pray for Ann, my pregnant wife. (High risk pregnancy.))
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: PleaseNoMore
Behold, Thy Mother!
34 posted on 12/10/2004 7:14:37 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, sancta Dei Genitrix.... sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper...)
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: ScottM1968

Huh? Can you read? How is 'All' herself?


36 posted on 12/10/2004 7:17:02 AM PST by Jaded ((Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society. - Mark Twain))
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To: Pyro7480

Nowhere did Jesus say that Mary was the mother of all Christians. Nowhere.


37 posted on 12/10/2004 7:20:07 AM PST by PleaseNoMore
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To: Sybeck1
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
As a Southern Baptist, I believe this also pertains to Mary, but I would like to know how Catholics explain it. I am truely not flaming here, just curious.

Good question. I don't have the definitive answer but here are a few possibilities:

Does the "all" mean every single person (as I assume you interpret it) or does it mean all as in no group is exempt. An example of this is too say the "all" could mean no group is excluded (Gentiles, Jews, young, old, men, women, etc.) Of course I am no Greek scholar.

Another is that Mary may have no longer been with us at the time this was preached. OR. If his audience knew her to be sinless there would be no reason to go back and restate it. It would just be assumed that there was no contridiction.

Again, this is all speculation on my part.

38 posted on 12/10/2004 7:28:13 AM PST by NeoCaveman (Harry Reid is an embarrasment to the Senate)
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To: Sybeck1
Upon further review of Romans 3:20-23, and really the whole chapter, it seems to me Paul is saying that all have sinned meaning that Jews along with Gentile are not exempt from being sinners. As the context is about salvation by Christ's sactrifice not by keeping the Jewish law.

But that's just my take.

39 posted on 12/10/2004 7:36:49 AM PST by NeoCaveman (Harry Reid is an embarrasment to the Senate)
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To: Sybeck1
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) As a Southern Baptist, I believe this also pertains to Mary, but I would like to know how Catholics explain it. I am truely not flaming here, just curious.

I am an Episcopalian and former Regular Baptist who is converting to Catholicism. My Baptist pastor once pointed out that "all" cannot necessarily mean "all men inclusive, period", since that would include Jesus. There are exceptions to the word all in Scripture. Catholic theology simply states that Mary was preserved from the Original Sin of Adam, in God's foreknowledge that she would carry the Son of God within her members. This is a singular event, for the Incarnation.

40 posted on 12/10/2004 7:41:07 AM PST by No_Outcome_But_Victory (Please pray for Ann, my pregnant wife. (High risk pregnancy.))
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