Posted on 12/16/2004 1:14:47 PM PST by marshmallow
Sounds like someone has an axe to grind.
And some people should really not wear horizonal (or diagonal) stripes.
The Legionnaires have convinced you too, I see.
There's nothing conservative about mind games, and the Legionnaires, and to a lesser extent Opus Dei, play on the maleable.
It's OK to trust, but always verify.
"There's nothing conservative about mind games, and the Legionnaires, and to a lesser extent Opus Dei, play on the maleable."
Sinky,
I don't get your axe-grinding sometimes.
As if any diocese USA has squeaky clean aspects to them in every way. As you know, they do not. It is pretty easy to lob bombs at these movements and then sit back and watch as the shrapnel hits good folks. I think it unbecoming and uncharitable.
The LoC has many kudos from JPII. Good enough for him, good enough for me.
(BTW, I have NO affiliation with ANY of the movements mentioned on this thread)
They aren't all orthodox. I have some in the extended family, and they are by no means friends of traditional Catholicism. Well intentioned? Perhaps.
We'd have discussions around the kitchen table several times on a myriad of topics. They're NeoCatholics, pure and simple. A real flare for externals, though.
It all comes down to loyalty to the Deposit of Faith.
Maybe the Legionaries and Opus Dei are just attempting to create an environment as free from distractions as possible,so that man can hear God more clearly?
I agree. The only problem is that often we have no way to determine who is loyal to the Deposit of Faith except by watching what they say and how they act.
Archbishop Flynn has demmonstrated time and again that he is not loyal to the Deposit of Faith. I cannot think of anything that he has done or said,since the infamous HLI incidents,that shows otherwise.
Regards the other groups we are discussing on this thread,I find a lack facts to support accusations that they are not loyal to the Deposit of Faith. Opinions,yes; different perceptions,yes; failure to focus on all aspects of the Deposit of Faith,yes.Clear evidence of teaching contrary to the Deposit of Faith,No.
So given the givens,as I analyze them,abp. Flynn is identifying himself more and more clearly with those that seek to destroy the Church,wittingly or unwittingly,I have no idea. When I was a child there was a radio program called "The Dhadow",the sign-off line was:"Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of man".
There's nothing wrong with questioning the methods used by "movements." The Catholic Charismatic Renewal has done quite a bit of good in getting some Catholics back into prayer, but some prayer groups foster dependency in their members that is not healthy.
The LoC has a reputation for "fostering vocations" in people who have no business in the clergy.
There is a rapidly-expanding ecumenical movement in Europe (and to a lesser extent here in the states) known as Focolare. While it is doing a great deal of good, and is sanctioned by the Church, there is been some criticism of its exclusivity.
These groups are not for everybody.
I guess my objection is to anything that relies on emotion as a primary engine to fuel its growth.
Post 46. Agree wholeheartedly. Ping... Bump... or whatever... Exactly my thoughts.
The link you post is full of the same rote responses that Regnum Christi members are taught to imbibe and then spit out when questioned.
The fact that seven men continue to press their case against Fr. Maciel, with one of them a priest in good standing, and the rest are upwardly mobile professionals in various professions, makes one wonder what their motivation might be, other than to see justice done.
Aside from the Maciel investigations, the fact remains that Familia (even though it is a good program) operates within parishes, and is run by parishioners under the spiritual direction of Legionaries priests. They hide behind names of various apostolates and never identify themselves. This is not above-board, and is hypocritical, especially when they are the first to always throw lines out about "detraction" and "calumny" regarding Maciel and the Legionaries. If they would operate "above board" then these problems would not exist, but then again, they would not be able to "infiltrate" as many places either. They are orthodox and much of their formation is pre-VAtican IIish. However, it is not solely a "liberal bishop" vs. "orthodox priests and lay movement" phenomenon. There are MANY families, priests and bishops who are orthodox who question the methodology of the Legion and Regnum Christi. If you are "in the Regnum Christi box" as the people listed in the link you provided, then they are not going to be able to give an objective analysis. As one who was in that "box" for nearly 7 years, I can repeat their lines verbatim, uncritically. I have found many of the criticisms against them to be true--liberal bishop or not.
"Legionaries appear to have been gravely libeled by a few disgruntled ex-seminarians ably lending their names and their claims to the usual gang of press and media suspects in attacks on Father Maciel."
No. You are playing their game. As much as I would like to agree with you, you are wrong. It is much more than just a few. We have about a dozen homeschool families who were once RC, and now are not. They are coercive and manipulative and never above board. Their methodology and "system" is not in keeping with the Pope's emphasis on freedom and the dignity of the human person. It matters little that you know Fr. Bannon personally. Their system is flawed. They are NOT the future of the Church. They operate outside of canon law in many cases and do not respect the authority of the diocesan bishops in MANY cases--liberal or notl
I would be more than happy to discuss offline my firsthand experience of their "anti-traditional" spiritual direction and indifference to "traditional" Catholicism.
Those are NOT your only education choices. YOU are the primary educator of your children. Homeschooling is an option that is perhaps the best one.
As far as I remember, all the men who accused Maciel are active member of the Catholic Church, apparently in good standing. Putting it off as a "liberal" or "modernist" invasion does not do justice to the truth of the situation and the credibility of the individuals involved in making the accusations. I would prefer NOT to focus on the charges against Maciel, but you and others keep bringing it up.
However, I have read the excruciating details in this case: it is not the "liberals" vs. "conservative good guys" that everyone wants to paint it as. It is not that simple.
"Personally, I think every Catholic should ask himself the question 'what is my vocation in life, what is God calling me to do' - and someone has to start that process in most Catholic teenagers. Some might call that pressure, I don't know."
Of course you are right. I couldn't agree more. Let's try some specific examples. If someone with a religious order found out you were a high school or college student considering the priesthood, then they had their "recruiter" call you weekly for a year. Every single time he called, you told him you were considering the diocesan priesthood or a traditional order, NOT their particular order, but then he continued calling you WEEKLY to "check in," would you call that coercive?
How about another young man who knew he had a calling to the diocese or a traditional order, and they called him continuously, more than once per week, and kept him on the phone answering his objections to their order, for 3 hours in some cases, would that be coercive in your view?
If you had to have your parents screen your phone calls so you could avoid taking their calls, would this be an infringement on your freedom.
These are NOT isolated incidents. These occur throughout the U.S. and the world continuously. This is called coercion, which is prohibited in Dignitatis Humanae, the document on religious liberty, from the Second Vatican Council. Perhaps the Legion hasn't read it.
Cliches are cute little sayings that help to prevent people from dealing with the facts. Funny thing about facts, isn't it? Rather than simply speculating without first-hand experience and critical research, everyone can have an opinion.
But to see something firsthand as "the salvation of the Church" as I originally did in a diocese that used to be run by corrupt Bishop and chancery, then have the Legion enter as "saviors," but then they continue the same underground tactics with a new bishop, who has allowed 3 traditional Latin Mass centers in his diocese in his 4-year tenure, but has NOT allowed the Legion--well...
Call it whatever cute little cliche you like. Facts tend to change people's opinions and minds better than cliches and uninformed commentary and opinions.
I didn't bring it up,I never bring up that particular accusation because I have read enough about it and the accusers,to know that none of us have the information that could establish the veracity of the charges.
Consequently,I only commented as a response to another poster's comments. I wanted to convey that regards accusations,I take a jaundiced approach and "assume" if the accusers are trying to destroy the Church they will stop at nothing to accomplish their mission.
In this case,I don't know enough about the motives or associations of any of the accusing parties to make any determination until more is known,which may well be in another life.LOL.
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