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To: Buggman; editor-surveyor; xzins; suzyjaruki; Frumanchu
"Luther and Calvin are to be commended for their contributions to the climb out of the pit of papism, but to assume that their primitive understanding of prophecy is the apex can only limit our spiritual growth."

Very, very well said. Pastor John Robinson said much the same to the Mayflower Pilgrims right before they left for the New World: “For it is not possible the Christian world should come so lately out of such thick antichristian darkness, and that the full perfection of knowledge should break forth at once.”

Those with a Reform eschatology tend to ignore several facts:

1) Premill was undeniably the belief of the ante-Nicean Church fathers; amill didn't appear until around the time of Origen and wasn't popularized until Augustine.

Well, which is it? Was the amil/postmil view a move "out of such thick antichristian darkness" of the earlier premillennialism, or are those who take a "latter day saints" approach to eschatology (dispie premil) the correct ones?

You will note that it is not the Reformed folks who are trying to argue two different positions at the same time.

BTW, Robinson was Reformed so I doubt he ever argued for nouveau, non-Reformed eschatology.

17 posted on 01/04/2005 12:49:45 PM PST by topcat54
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To: topcat54
Well, which is it? Was the amil/postmil view a move "out of such thick antichristian darkness" of the earlier premillennialism, or are those who take a "latter day saints" approach to eschatology (dispie premil) the correct ones?

Eh? Do you even understand the issue at hand?

Premill was the position of the earliest Church. Of particular note, it was held by Irenaeus, who was the disciple of Polycarp, who was the disciple of the Apostle who penned the Apocalypse in the first place. It was also held by Hippolytus, Justin Martyr, Victoranius, and several others. Amill, in contrast, does not appear until the fourth century--interestingly enough, right about the time the Church started prostituting herself to the state, but that's another discussion.

In a similar vein, salvation by grace received in faith was also undeniably the position of the ECF. It was later that it was wrapped in legalism so tightly that it was nearly lost. When Robinson and others speak of the anti-Christian darkness, they are speaking not of the ECF, but of the papacy that followed it and smothered the Gospel in the traditions of men. The Reformers did not invent sola gracia, they rediscovered it.

In like fashion, the modern premills did not invent their eschatology, but have rediscovered the faith of the ECF.

That's not to say that the rediscovery happened all at once. In the case of salvation by grace, Luther and Calvin (and especially the latter) all but idolized Augustine--hardly a surprise, given their Catholic upbringing and teaching--and much like Augustine, overemphasized God's sovereignty over His character. That, like continuing the practices of infant baptism or antisemitism or denying the gifts of the Spirit, was an error on their parts that they carried with them from their Catholic backgrounds that later generations needed to correct as their understanding of the Scriptures grew.

In all cases, however, the goal has been not to come up with something new, but to return to the teaching of the Apostles and the very early Church, to before the corruption of the Gospel of later centuries. Which is what we premillennialists have done.

18 posted on 01/04/2005 1:09:21 PM PST by Buggman (Your failure to be informed does not make me a kook.)
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