[xzins]

ping

[RobbyS]

Spinoza's tactic was to concede the right to religion to say what is moral. He didn't mean it. Because man is part of nature and subject to the "laws of nature" his conclusions about morality must conform to what "divine reason" tells us through science.

[betty boop]

Once human nature is understood to be an accident of chance, it can no longer be the inviolable locus of moral claims.

Fine post, xzins. I especially liked Wiker's pointing out that the "Two Truths" theory of knowledge really is a canard. For every dogmatic Darwinist I know is a closet metaphysician who refuses to admit the fact.

Thanks for the post, xzins!

[Doctor Stochastic]

That atheism is the natural effect of embracing evolutionary theory should come as no surprise.

The author finds that the change of allele frequencies over time leads to atheism? Or maybe the author is just doing the Usual Creationist Thing of accusing everyone who doesn't share his viewpoint of being atheists. Oh well, at least he didn't accuse evolution for being responsible for the disappearance of Jimmy Hoffa.

[pro610]

Darwin is Satan's weapon for society of today, before Darwin there was Plato before Plato there was Socrates.
All of these men are fools.
All of these men along with others such as Helen Blavatsky, Emanuel Swedenborg,Carl Jung and others are from the Evil One(Satan).
They also have one thing in common.
They have advanced the Theosophical Society, the most evil organization in the world today.

[StJacques]

". . . It seems more like typical Creationist name-calling. This has been the pattern of Creationist argument for the last 50 years at least. The author is just another guy with no logical argument about biology so he resorts to attacking the religion of those who disagree with him. . . ."

All too true Doctor Stochastic. All too true.

You quoted the heart of the matter in your earlier post:

". . . That atheism is the natural effect of embracing evolutionary theory should come as no surprise. . . ."

Creationists consistently cling to their misconception that if you believe the Theory of Evolution is credible, you deny God. I have pointed out on thread after Crevo thread that Pope John Paul II and the Pontifical Academy of Sciences of the Roman Catholic Church have stated that the Theory of Evolution is credible and supported by a convergence of findings from many scientific disciplines that was "neither sought nor fabricated." The Catholic Church's response is to distinguish between the spiritual and material evolution of man, which makes the Theory of Evolution and the Biblical story of creation compatible. But the Creationists continue to insist that the Theory of Evolution denies God, while refusing to call the Pope, the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, and the Catholic Church atheists. It is only a matter of time before the religious bigotry of these Creationists becomes evident as sooner or later one of them is going to step forth and do just that.

And then finally there is this:

". . . evolutionary theory, for a variety of nonscientific reasons, has become sacrosanct. To express doubts by bringing up the most glaring counterevidence to the theory is to brand oneself an intellectual infidel . . ."

These words are nothing more than notes from the Creationist subculture, which consistently tells itself within an enclosed self-supporting community that the Theory of Evolution has been undermined while never offering anything besides a link to some article on a creationist web site to back this up. I repeat here the same challenge I have put up time and again on these Crevo threads. If you believe the Theory of Evolution has been undermined by new scientific evidence, then explain to us how Petroleum Geologists look for oil and why they actually succeed in finding it. The only answer I have ever received to this challenge is a statement that went something like "Geologists succeed in finding oil for reasons other than the ones they believe explain their success."

I'm still waiting for an answer to my challenge.

[Right Wing Professor]

Since the mechanism of natural selection was designed by Darwin to eliminate the need for a designer, to retain a deity seems to be entirely superfluous. Why keep a redundant cause on the cosmic payroll?

This must be a Vatican II innovation. Back when I was Catholic, I don't recall it being preached that the sole purpose of God is to be explanation of biological diversity.

Makes the ol' death-on-the-cross seem superfluous.

[Right Wing Professor]

General critique; this is really, really weak logic concealed under a facade of erudition. The proposition that Darwinism has moral concequences isn't argued, it's asserted. As an atheist, who does not accept Catholicism's moral premises, I deny nonetheless that we can derive any ethical or moral precepts from Darwinism. The fact that people have done so in the past is irrelevant.

The argument that Epicurus is the founder of evolutionary theory is asinine beyond belief. Evolutionary theory is a theory of biology, not a system of philosophy.

The argument that the only reason to treat humans different from animals is because of his particular theological beliefs is just another unargued assertion. Kant, for example argued that humans are different from animals in that humans and not animals create moral laws and act on them. Whatever one thinks of Kant - and I personally think Kant could have given the author of these piece 50 IQ points and still reduced him to a quivering blob in 5 minutes - this argument of Kant's itself refutes the author's contention that there can be no reason to treat humans differently from animals if there is no God. Sure there are.

He claims that Every method in science begins and ends with a metaphysic. Nonsense. Science is an eminently empirical exercise; most of us despise metaphysics.

One more instance of the intellectual demise of the American Catholic Church, I'm afraid.

[DugwayDuke]

thanks for posting.

[Rocky]

This is Part II. Did you also post Part I?

[Prophet in the wilderness]

And when science comes to it's end,
GOD will be there saying
" Here I am , I have tried to tell you that all along, but you wouldn't listen "

[Rocky]

I haven't found Part I yet, but here is a link to another great article by the same author in the same publication:

http://www.crisismagazine.com/november2004/wiker.htm

[Rocky]

Here's the link to Part I, although it doesn't say "Part I" in the title:

http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2003/feature1.htm