Posted on 03/10/2005 9:55:31 PM PST by Coleus
If those aren't to your taste, and I'll admit they're not to mine(I'm an orthodox Lutheran - LCMS variety), might I suggest The Matrix (all three movies). The brothers Wachowski did a masterful job in creating this allegory of Christianity. The imagery is a little less clear cut than that of LOTR, but it's most certainly there.
Also, I agree that the LOTR cycle was fantastic and incredibly well done and demonstrates a strong element of Christianity.
It is my hope that Disney does a good job with Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia, although I feel like they'll dispense with a lot of the Christian to make it more PC.
Anyone can make assertions.
Michael O'Brien as well as many others back their assertions up with reasoned intellectual argument. All you do is seek to malign the character of those who hold a view contrary to yours by associating them with the ridiculous and creating straw man arguments.
You make the assertion:
"Harry Potter does not romanticize the occult."
Now back it up with reasoned logical argument, if you are able, and I will listen to what you have to say.
Perhaps, but I don't see that the devil needs to tempt the ones he already has. It seems to me a far bigger prize would be one who is already promised to Christ. There are good fantasy books that exist that reaffirm Christian faith and belief, why would one want to take a chance with something that makes the occult a "good"?
You know I was thinking that too the last time I watched them. I am a recent convert so I completely missed the allegory the first time around but I just put on the DVD's last weekend and it hit me. It is pretty decent. Star Wars has always been a favorite of mine too. Looking forward to episode 3.
I hate that. I kind of wish there was some sci fi writer who could at least include Christianity in there stories and put in in a positive light.
Just because someone isn't strong in their faith doesn't mean the devil has them. Think of it like a grading curve, people strong in their faith have an A, people in the devil's grip have an F, temptation is there for the B through D students.
But no chance is being taken, at least not with HP. The books don't make the occult look good, they don't have anything to do with the occult. They are off this ciriculum path.
No, they back up their assertions with blatant misinterpretations of what the books say and include. If the books said those things people lke O'Brien would be right, but they don't say those things.
There's a lot more than Christian allegory in the Matrix movies, there's also a lot of Norse mythology, and a lot of stuff taken from just about every philospher (or psuedo-philosopher) that has ever questioned the nature of reality. Really the Matrix movies are a train wreck of metaphors and allegory, whatever philosophical or religious background you come from you're sure to find a bunch of stuff that's in line with your thinking, the Matrix really is all things to all people.
Now back it up with reasoned logical argument, if you are able, and I will listen to what you have to say.
That's a negative. Can't prove a negative.
It is my opinion that Potter does not romanticize the occult, just as it is O'Brien's opinion that the series does.
But, I don't really care that much about this issue to argue over it. My kids are grown, and don't read Harry Potter. Nor do I.
But I have read one of Rowling's books, and have read enough commentary to conclude that the church ladies are wrong on this just as they are wrong about the Little Mermaid.
Busybody buttinskis.
Like maybe Michael O'Brien, the author of this hit piece on Harry Potter?
How convenient.
When you have some time, there are a few good websites that discuss some of the Matrix symbolism. Some of the info is good; some of it leaves much to be desired.
I hadn't seen the movie until recently, and then I only saw it at the behest of my pastor. After I watched it, with him and several others, we had a good discussion. It was fascinating.
Here's a little Star Wars/Lutheran joke for you: How can you tell when you're watching Star Wars with a Lutheran? Everytime someone in the movie says, "May the Force be with you.", they respond, "And also with you."
Glad to hear of your conversion. God bless you as you learn more of Him.
Good point! I know a few student who have presumed to have an A, and don't bother doing their homework or studying and guess what happens? Do you think it might be a bit prideful to assume that one's faith is so strong, that one would willingly expose oneself to things contrary to that faith?
The books don't make the occult look good, they don't have anything to do with the occult.
Huh?
You seem to be making two arguments,
1) That the books do not have anything to do with the occult. (frankly I don't know how you intend to demonstrate that)
and 2)Even if it could be a source of temptation for some (therefore there must be things contrary to the faith within it), it would not be a temptation for those of "strong" faith.
I would like to know, how do you determine if your faith or that of the child reading it is strong enough to resist indoctrination to non Christian beliefs through a highly entertaining form?
How convenient.
You're doing it again. Back up your assertions with argument instead of just spouting and maligning others, who actually do back up their assertions.
The Catholic would say "et cum spirit tuo", well the trad would...
Good redirect, the discussion seems to have gone off the topic, what not the point of the author the paganization of children's culture?
If an adult prudently determines he/she is strong enough in their faith to ignore this sort of thing then that is between them and Christ. The question is do you want your children seeing it? That's a totally different question.
It is my opinion that Michael O'Brien is suffering from a severe case of professional jealousy in criticizing the J.K. Rowling Harry Potter series.
His books are almost unknown outside of Christian circles. He has every reason, financial and otherwise, to draw attention to his work by tearing down Harry Potter.
If my opinions are objectionable to you, you can simply ignore them.
Now back it up with reasoned logical argument, if you are able, and I will listen to what you have to say.
That's a negative. Can't prove a negative.
You could, if you could demonstrate how Michael O'Brien is in error. I'm all ears.
But, I don't really care that much about this issue to argue over it. My kids are grown, and don't read Harry Potter. Nor do I.
Oh you care enough to troll through this thread maligning people who hold views contrary to yours. Anyone can do that sinkspur. Liberals do it all the time.
"Church ladies, busybody buttinskis"
I don't know sinkspur, that sounds like something I'd hear from a 10 year old. I was hoping to be dazzled by your intellectual prowess. I'm very disappointed.
That becomes a question really of just how honest is a person with himself. There are people that can honestly judge the strength of their faith, just as their are people that can honestly judge their job performance, and others that can't. One thing I think is a good judgment point is fear, I don't think people that fear things damaging their faith have strong faith, for people with strong faith their faith acts as a shield people with weak faith must shield their faith. I think people strong in their faith can safely explore the world, investigate things contrary to their faith to learn how the otherside lives (through observation only of course, experimentation frequently involves wrong acts), which is important for effective prostelytizing.
Well since you can't prove a negative (first and most important rule of logic) it cannot be proven that entirely that HP has nothing to do with the occult. But what we can see is that every single attempt to dig up evidence that HP is pro-occult, and given how long this "controversy" has raged that's a lot of attempts, has revolved around blatant and obvious misinterpretations, misrepresentations, and occasionally outright lies. There simply is nothing in the books that bears even the slightest resemblance to any brand of the occult known today, not without heavy re-editing by the critics.
The first half of the post your responding to was a generalized statement about temptation. In the overall scheme of things faith is a muscle, it must be excercised, one must learn to resist temptation if one is to develop a strong faith. A person must know themselves to understand just how much temptation they can stand, but a person shouldn't be afraid to strengthen their faith, and that is done both through re-afirmation of the faith and resistance to temptation. Though again, HP offers no temptation, there simply isn't anything in there for any Christian to get upset about, it doesn't re-afirm either, it's just not connected to the world of faith, just fun books about growing up. Not really terribly different than any other British prep school books (it's a whole genre in England) except for the fantasy setting and approachability.
But the author said HP was part of that paganization, and he's wrong. Because the author used false statements about this series of books to make his point the question then becomes: should the author even be listened to at all?
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