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Pope Drops Papal Crown From Coat of Arms, Adds Miter, Pallium (Not Exactly)
Catholic News Service ^ | 4/27/2005 | Carol Glatz

Posted on 04/27/2005 6:55:32 PM PDT by Pyro7480

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To: Unam Sanctam
I don't approve. Please, please, please don't drop the tiara. It's bad enough there's no more coronation. They'll be dropping it from the papal flag next. The tiara is an historic symbol of long standing and should not be eliminated.

The triple Tiara goes back only to Boniface VIII, with his overreaching attempts to be king of the earth.

Neither Pope St. Gregory VII, nor St. Leo IX never wore one, nor did Popes St. Agatho, Martin I, Gregory the Great, Leo the Great, or Damasus.

What is the big deal? Christ didn't crown St. Peter with a Tiara.

51 posted on 04/28/2005 4:23:46 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Pyro7480
The papal crown has been given the boot once again, this time no longer appearing as part of the new pope's coat of arms.

I like the three-tiered tiara myself, never having seen a pope wear it. The sedan chair seemed a bit much, but I'm not crazy about the popemobile either.

Anyone know the history of the three-tiered tiara?

52 posted on 04/28/2005 4:51:28 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan

The catholic encyclopedia has this history:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14714c.htm


53 posted on 04/28/2005 5:21:40 AM PDT by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Knitting A Conundrum
Thanks. It's interesting to me that the three-tiered crown came into use in the Scholastic era.

The first notice of three crowns is contained in an inventory of the papal treasure of the year 1315 or 1316.
The symbolism of the crown makes sense to me, and can serve a useful purpose as a teaching tool. I also personally prefer the bishops' crowns of the Eastern Rites to the mitres of the Latin Rite.
54 posted on 04/28/2005 5:53:24 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan

smack during the Avignon papacy...not a time when the papacy was really in control of much temporal power....


55 posted on 04/28/2005 6:03:41 AM PDT by Knitting A Conundrum (Act Justly, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly With God Micah 6:8)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker

Haven't seen your posts in many moons, good to see you again. What do you think of the Holy Spirit's choice for the new Pope?


56 posted on 04/28/2005 6:06:57 AM PDT by TradicalRC (I'd rather live in a Christian theocracy than a secular democracy.)
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To: Aquinasfan
I like the three-tiered tiara myself, never having seen a pope wear it. The sedan chair seemed a bit much,

I can learn to live without the tiara, but I really do miss the sedia gestatoria. I don't think there's any coherent reason to reject it. Its chief function is to provide visibility: the popemobile and JPII's more recent rolling platform provide the same function but with far less poetry and beauty. The platform in particular is undignified, a sort of parade float that makes the Holy Father into a pageant queen. The sedia is preferable precisely because it is supported by men: it underscores the unique dignity of the papacy and affords the faithful a participation in the -- literally -- basic symbolism of lending their bodies to uphold the papacy. There are ancient traditions of beloved dignitaries receiving similar honors: Roman commanders were "exalted" on the shields of their soldiers. Leaders in carriages or chariots had their horses taken away and instead were drawn through the streets by enthusiastic young men. In our own time and country, it's not uncommon for a sports hero to be hoisted to the shoulders of his teammates, to demonstrate their respect and gratitude. Catholics are an incarnational people; it's good when they resort to physical ways of acting out their faith. That our age reduces all of this to a myth of papal pride and folie de grandeur only points out how shallow and ignorant we are.

57 posted on 04/28/2005 7:17:38 AM PDT by Romulus (Der Inn fließt in den Tiber.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

That's not a Papal tiara???


58 posted on 04/28/2005 7:40:52 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Romulus
the popemobile and JPII's more recent rolling platform provide the same function but with far less poetry and beauty. The platform in particular is undignified, a sort of parade float that makes the Holy Father into a pageant queen. The sedia is preferable precisely because it is supported by men: it underscores the unique dignity of the papacy and affords the faithful a participation in the -- literally -- basic symbolism of lending their bodies to uphold the papacy. There are ancient traditions of beloved dignitaries receiving similar honors: Roman commanders were "exalted" on the shields of their soldiers. Leaders in carriages or chariots had their horses taken away and instead were drawn through the streets by enthusiastic young men. In our own time and country, it's not uncommon for a sports hero to be hoisted to the shoulders of his teammates, to demonstrate their respect and gratitude. Catholics are an incarnational people; it's good when they resort to physical ways of acting out their faith. That our age reduces all of this to a myth of papal pride and folie de grandeur only points out how shallow and ignorant we are.

Beautifully put.

The only argument against the practice is the opportunity for misunderstanding and the occassion for derision it would present for anti-Catholic bigots.

Overall, it's a tough call. But your argument in favor is stronger, IMO.

59 posted on 04/28/2005 7:42:13 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan; Romulus
occassion for derision it would present for anti-Catholic bigots.

The anti-Catholic bigots will exercise their bigotry regardless of what we do.

60 posted on 04/28/2005 7:44:33 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Yossarian

Actually, I always did like that joke.


61 posted on 04/28/2005 7:45:27 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Aquinasfan
>The only argument against the practice is the opportunity for misunderstanding and the occassion for derision


If we all just dressed
normal, there'd be no chance of
misunderstanding!

62 posted on 04/28/2005 7:47:13 AM PDT by theFIRMbss
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Comment #63 Removed by Moderator

To: Romulus

You make a very eloquent defense. I must agree.


64 posted on 04/28/2005 8:08:11 AM PDT by Mark in the Old South (Sister Lucia of Fatima pray for us)
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To: theFIRMbss

What is that? A Freemason? Don't they wear aprons?


65 posted on 04/28/2005 8:10:24 AM PDT by Mark in the Old South (Sister Lucia of Fatima pray for us)
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To: Mark in the Old South
He is wearing an apron ...

I prefer cape, chapeau and sword, m'self:

No, that's not me.

66 posted on 04/28/2005 8:21:18 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

What uniform it that? Is it Knights of Columbus? I know they were a sword. I still do not know what the first picture is? I really do not know. I was raised with a bias about any organization that has secret rites.


67 posted on 04/28/2005 8:29:14 AM PDT by Mark in the Old South (Sister Lucia of Fatima pray for us)
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To: Mark in the Old South
Right click on the picture of the first guy and select "properties". The file name identifies it as some sort of Masonic officer. Several Popes have concdemned that group (which is really all I know about it).

The picture I posted is a Knight of Columbus, a member of a thoroughly Catholic organisation.

68 posted on 04/28/2005 8:35:28 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: TradicalRC

Seems as good a man as we could have hoped for. Lets see how he follows upon his previous activity and inclinations in the traditionalist realm.


69 posted on 04/28/2005 11:22:35 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker

He could do a lot by simply doing follow-up work on JP II's encyclicals. He could validly make the claim of not imposing anything "new" or worse, "old" on the Church.


70 posted on 04/28/2005 4:09:12 PM PDT by TradicalRC (I'd rather live in a Christian theocracy than a secular democracy.)
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To: Aquinasfan; Romulus

One of my cousins was an Archbishop in the Vatican diplomatic corps, beginning as a junior attache in the reign of Pius XII and retiring as an Archbishop under John Paul II.

He told us a funny story about the Sedia Gestatoria and John XXIII. "I don't like it at all," he said to my cousin. "It reminds me of a very bad boat ride - I'm always feeling seasick when I'm in it."

And - one of the first acts of his pontificate - again, this is according to my cousin, was to double the pay of the Papal Gentlemen who had to carry it. "It's only fair," he told my cousin, "I weigh at least twice as much as Pius XII !!!!"


71 posted on 04/28/2005 4:51:46 PM PDT by TaxachusettsMan
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To: TradicalRC

I am most interested to see what he does regarding the celebration of the Mass, the encouragement of Latin, and relations with the SSPX and the Orthodox.


72 posted on 04/28/2005 5:17:07 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Ciexyz

"cooperatores" -- Is anybody here competent in Latin and can clarify?

Yes...

"Operator" is Latin for "worker". Co-Operator is therefore a co-worker. Cooperatores is plural, hence, co-workers.

Cooperatores veritatis = Co-Workers of/for the truth!

I like it!


73 posted on 04/28/2005 6:15:04 PM PDT by jrny (Oremus pro Pontifice nostro Benedicto Decimo Sexto.)
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To: Unam Sanctam
I don't approve. Please, please, please don't drop the tiara. It's bad enough there's no more coronation. ... The tiara is an historic symbol of long standing and should not be eliminated.

We've disagreed in the past, but of course as a monarchist I'm with you here 100%.

74 posted on 04/28/2005 7:49:32 PM PDT by royalcello
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To: Hermann the Cherusker; Unam Sanctam; Pyro7480

It would do a lot of good for Catholics, and the world in general, to be reminded that the Church is a monarchy, not a democracy.

It would be hard not to see the post-Vatican II popes' renunciation of the tiara and coronation as a reversal of the Church's traditional support of monarchy, which Pope Pius VI had called "the best of all governments." Of all the deplorable changes of the past forty years, after the abandonment of the Latin mass and the sacred music associated with it, this is the one I regret the most.


75 posted on 04/28/2005 7:55:45 PM PDT by royalcello
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To: jrny
Cooperatores veritatis - coworkers for truth!

I too like this phrase, and I'm liking this new Pope more and more as the days go on!

76 posted on 04/28/2005 8:08:33 PM PDT by Ciexyz (Let us always remember, the Lord is in control.)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
I am most interested to see what he does regarding the celebration of the Mass, the encouragement of Latin, and relations with the SSPX and the Orthodox.

My thoughts exactly.

77 posted on 04/28/2005 9:15:32 PM PDT by TradicalRC (I'd rather live in a Christian theocracy than a secular democracy.)
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To: TaxachusettsMan
"It's only fair," he told my cousin, "I weigh at least twice as much as Pius XII !!!!"

8-) Thanks for that story.

78 posted on 04/29/2005 4:55:46 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: royalcello; Unam Sanctam; Pyro7480
It would do a lot of good for Catholics, and the world in general, to be reminded that the Church is a monarchy, not a democracy.

A Monarchy is a state of government with a single absolute power - Mono (one) archos (power).

If the Church is a Monarchy, it is because Jesus Christ Himself is the King.

In actual practice, however, the government of the Church is not really like a Monarchy as most think of it -an absolute Monarch of the Louis XIV mold ("L'Etat, c'est moi") - but more of a Meritorcratic Aristocracy, with a leading Aristocrat acting as the Royal Regent.

On a secular level, a closer model of how it actually worked would be France or Germany of the period between AD 900-1200. The King held absolute power in his fiefdom, and a lesser collective power over the other nobility in their fiefs in certain matters, but only a power to the extent they are willing to cooperate with the King. To the Church, the Pope has absolute power as a Bishop over the archdiocese of Rome. He has supervisory power over all the other dioceses. But if a Bishop refuses his commands or rebells, like the Orthodox have for example, they are still Bishops of a Church, but now in disobedience against the established order.

The Pope is not a Monarch, but the Prince of Princes in the Church. He is set over the other Bishops for supervision, coordination, and correction, but he does not have more epsicopal power than them - he is still just a Bishop like them. That is why we say he is the "Vicar of Christ". He is acting as a Regent in place of the temporally absent Monarch, the Lord Jesus Christ our King. He himself is not the Monarch.

This should not be confused with the secular monarchical role the Pope played from 754 to 1870 as head of the Papal States, especially in the post feudal age from 1300 onwards. The current Vatican City-State is a hypertechnical "state" that is lacking in real citizens.

79 posted on 04/29/2005 6:56:05 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: TradicalRC
I am most interested to see what he does regarding the celebration of the Mass, the encouragement of Latin, and relations with the SSPX and the Orthodox.

Didn't Pope Benedict XVI (Cardinal Ratzinger) sign the May 5th 1988 document with Archbishop Lefebvre?

80 posted on 04/29/2005 9:22:15 AM PDT by frogjerk
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To: Aquinasfan

Not craizy about him wearing the tiara either... but messing with the crest and putting in a mitre? Huge mistake. A jillion bishops have a mitre peaking their crest.. he's the only Pope... ( I know.. I know.. Hes also a bishop..) Not craizy at all about the design.


81 posted on 04/29/2005 5:21:04 PM PDT by dgbrunetti
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