Posted on 05/03/2005 7:06:40 AM PDT by ninenot
I'll start by posting a link to B16's article when I have time. He likes to quote Evdokimov, whom I've never read, but who is a very peripheral (and, to some, "iffy") figure in Russian Orthodoxy. I would dare say there are better works than his, and I will get some titles and links to you.
Please flag me when you post that information. Thanks.
BUT, the congregational singing should be quietish and not so loud as to drown out the choir for the person standing next to you.
And the liturgical services are a huge part of that. I know that some people wonder what in the world we could possibly find to do in church for 2 - 3 hours a night virtually all through Holy Week. But for us this is a journey we take together, from the first time we sing "Behold, the Bridegroom comes at midnight, and blessed is the servant whom he shall find watching..." on Sunday night at the beginning of the week, to the exultant singing of "Let God arise, and let his enemies be scattered..." at 1:30 in the morning at the Paschal vigil (with still another hour or more to go...)
We practically live together during Holy Week, and on Paschal weekend, we are loathe to let it end, which is why the Bright Monday liturgy attendance is growing yearly at our parish.
You are right that good art is largely a dead issue in modern America. But as you have probably gathered, none of our liturgical tradition in Orthodoxy is linked to the state of art in the culture in which we find ourselves -- not our music, not our architecture, not our iconography. That's because it isn't really art anymore (or any less) than is the way a priest swings a censer or intones the Gospel.
It is linked to the traditions of the church, and even talent-less folks who do their best to faithfully follow those traditions will manage to convey the grace that comes through them.
Mind you, the impact of icons is even greater when the person painting them has artistic talent, and the chant has more of an impact when the people chanting have good ears and voices and innate musical ability. I know that every bit of of the decades of musical training and experience that I had have been taxed to the fullest in what I do, just faithfully following these traditions, and I think any icon painter would tell you the same thing.
Sandyeggo: If I didn't think that my ideas had any chance of sparking someone's interest and action, I wouldn't bother with sharing them. I am particularly spurred to share them having read some of the insightful writings of your new Pope, who understands that liturgical reform was necessary in the Catholic church 50 years ago, and that it is equally necessary now (both in the same ways as then, and unfortunately in some new ways, now.) He has stated that it is vital that the banner of "liturgical reform" is not the property of what you and I would call "the liberals" (he was much more diplomatic in how he put it.) Hope is a great Christian virtue!
The Greeks serve it every Friday night during Lent, but in the context of Small Compline.
Greeks and Russians also sing it differently:
An Akathist is comprised of 13 Kontakia, followed by an Ikos (both are just hymns the length of short paragraphs), then a series of refrains beginning with the word "Rejoice..."
In the Greek tradition, I believe that the choir or chanters sing the Kontakion, then the priest intones the Ikos and the refrains. We tend to have the priest intone the Kontakion and Ikos, then the choir sings the refrains to a set melodic sequence (known, of course, as the Akathist melody!)
We of course do all of this in English at parishes like ours that are completely English speaking. At Greek parishes, I've only ever heard it done in Greek.
There are also countless Akathists composed in honor of various saints that are served at all different times of the year. They were extremely popular in Russia, since they were often composed in a form of Church Slavonic that was more easily understood by people than is the Slavonic of the usual services. Since all of our services are pretty much 100% understandable in English, Akathists aren't nearly as popular here in America.
As you can see, there's a lot to this topic, so no need to apologize for "ignorance" -- (at least you know what an Akathistos is.)
BTW, "Akathistos" means "without sitting" -- one stands through the entire service. Of course, we pretty much stand through all of our services...
Yes, I completely agree with that -- people singing in the congregation should in general only sing along on things that everyone or nearly everyone is singing. And one's singing in the congregation should definitely be at a volume that doesn't make it hard for the person next to you to pray.
Of course the most annoying thing is that rare person who feels compelled to say the priest's parts along with him. It is impossible to do that quietly enough not to be distracting to others. Fortunately, this is quite rare, and one can make sure not to stand next to that person next time...
It really wouldn't have done for him to say "you know, we really ought to do what the Orthodox do," even if he thought it.
There are a lot of plain inaccuracies in his statements, more than I would have expected from Ratzinger, but his bottom line assessment of the likelihood of reunion is pretty accurate. And again, he was not speaking to Orthodox -- he was rallying his own troops. We all remember how dark and uncertain those days were for the Catholic church.
And of course, as we all know on FR, his comment that interactions are easier on a concrete, human level is easier than are "formal reunion talks" and all that silly stuff, which frankly most rank-and-file Orthodox don't take very seriously.
Art and Liturgy - The Question of Images
The following article is also of general liturgical interest. The statement that particularly made me choke on my coffee with a bit of surprise was the following:
After the Second Vatican Council, the impression arose that the pope really could do anything in liturgical matters, especially if he were acting on the mandate of an ecumenical council. Eventually, the idea of the givenness of the liturgy, the fact that one cannot do with it what one will, faded from the public consciousness of the West.
What Does 'Rite' Mean in the Context of Christian Liturgy?
As to works on the theology of the icon by Orthodox Christians that I would recommend, one might consider any of the following:
Books on Icons from Eastern Christian Supply
If anyone has specific questions about any of these books (or questions after you read any of them), just fire away at me -- on the forum or in private.
The most famous of these books is "The Meaning of Icons", and it was the first book I read on iconography. I don't own a copy and haven't read it in years, though. A very interesting little book is "Byzantine Thought and Art," because it discusses not only iconography, but also has a nice chapter on Byzantine chant, and other essays of interest on other topics. Cavarnos is a bit of a Greek chauvinist, but then if I had his knowledge of things Greek -- ancient, modern, and everything in-between -- I might be too. He is always worth reading. The books about Photios Kontoglou are interesting because they are about the man who almost singlehandedly rescued Byzantine iconography from its historical low-point. If anyone in Kontoglou's day had said that Orthodox parishes across America would be taking out their sentimental 19th century icons and replacing them with beautifully rendered traditional Byzantine icons, many would have laughed. For anyone with hopes of restoring one's own tradition, Kontoglou's story gives hope.
It also shows that the Orthodox tradition is anything but static: it is in a constant motion of returning to our traditional roots, although inevitably this happens (unconsciously) in a way that fits the needs of each age.
The following is probably the best on-line catalogue of icons available. One can spend hours browsing and looking at these icons. To get to the icons, click on one of the green-lettered topic links off to the left of the screen (The Lord, The Theotokos, etc...):
Icons from St. Isaac of Syria Skete
Finally, here is a nice on-line article about traditional Orthodox chant by the Greek scholar Dr. Dimitri Conomos. It is well-worth reading:
Early Christian and Byzantine Music
I'll stop there, but there is much more where this came from for those with specific questions.
With regard to my last post, I only pinged those who I remember to have been a part of this particular conversation on this thread. Of course, feel free to ping any other individuals who you think might be specifically interested -- I did not intentionally leave anyone out.
Ummnnhhh..
The G.O. priest and Church Lady and I seem to get along very well on a day-to-day basis. But he's not very optimistic about reunification--he's never openly said so, but he's hinted that the VERY high-level group of GO prelates are a little stiff-necked.
Ag, Kolo, Church Lady, SandyE, and I could work this thing out in 4 hours over cocktails....
I think the remarks of +Benedict XVI are both a fair and realistic appraisal of the situation. As Agrarian says, there are a couple of inaccuracies. For example, the comment about Orthodox doctrine being petrified seems a bit over the top. I suspect that he would allow that theological thought in Orthodoxy has in fact developed some, but in the organic way he has written the Roman Liturgy should have developed. In any event, petrification may, in this context, be in the eye of the beholder and compared to Rome, we have been static...thank God. The Orthodox Churches do not feel that a reunion would have to be the result of an ecumenical council of all Christians; it would have to be of The Church. His comment on the role of the Pope is interesting and he may be surprised that Orthodoxy, in some measure, probably does accept that idea, though his comments on Orthodox ecclesiology, while pretty much correct, may indicate he means something different in his comment on the Petrine Office than I am reading and understanding.
The rest of what His Holiness has written is very similar to what many of us Orthodox have written and that is good because it recognizes that there are very real differences which have very real consequences. Pretending everything is just fine doesn't help at all. Indeed it can hurt.
Thanks for the post. What year did he write this?
read later, looks interesting.
I think ninenot has a definite point that high art is simply not an American tradition. It just isn't. I would add Menotti to the list of 20th century music artists, but there aren't that many.
I do think, though, that it is worth considering that music education was sorely lacking period, in the catholic schools, at any rate. I learned my vocal technique from a Jew who studied in Florence. It definitely wasn't from anything I learned in school.
So, after "Lord of the Dance" the first song I really remember in church as a school kid was "All My Days". I still can't hear that song without the fingernails down the blackboard effect.
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