Traditionalist Catholic priestly society (SSPX) well acquainted with new pope

Kansas City Star ^ | May 12, 2005 | STEVE BRISENDINE

[AlbionGirl]

Bump for bookmark.

[murphE]

Hence to purchase the books produced by SSPX and Angelus (however Catholic by content) is to subsidize schism because it keeps their presses going and their employees at work where they are also publishing and distributing schismatic work that undermines Holy Mother the Church.

Using your logic, no one should give any money to the numerous dioceses in the US that support CCPA, by bringing their priests over here to say mass and go to our seminaries why real Catholics in China are being murdered and tortured. I'm all for that.

[Gerard.P]

I know of no one in my georgraphical vicinity...

Yes. And that's just the way we like it. You don't know where we are. But be on guard, we are everywhere. I occasionally take in a Novus Ordo to see the current sham and take notes. Look around the next time you are at Mass. If you see a dashing and devastatingly handsome man looking pitifully at the poor lost souls being led by the nose out of the Catholic Faith into the New One World Religion, you may think It's Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt doing research for a film about a sane man in a madhouse. It just may be an SSPX'er sent by God to bring some light to the darkness.

[gbcdoj]

You would seem to have managed the question yourself.

We refuse, on the other hand, and have always refused to follow the Rome of neo-Modernist and neo-Protestant tendencies which were clearly evident in the Second Vatican Council and, after the Council, in all the reforms which issued from it. (Msgr. Lefebvre, "Declaration", Nov. 21, 1974)

[Gerard.P]

Why did you post that? Is that what NYer read? Did you ask her how that proves the "Protestantism" of the SSPX?

Do you agree with her or disagree?

[BlackElk]

MurphE: This post of yours is a new low in embarassing yourself. I gather that I was involved in whatever conversations you are imagining. If the linked article by the late Fr. Charles Fiore, OP, is somehow relevant, I cannot imagine what the conversation could have been. I admired the work of Malachi Martin from the time thirty or so years ago when I first became familiar with his works. I have very often recommended The Final Conclave here to others and I have also recommended several of his other books.

As to Fr. Fiore, I attended the CATHOLIC (not SSPX schismatic) funeral of Fr. Fiore at St. Mary's Oratory (Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest)in Rockford, Illinois. The Oratory community had generally high regard for Fr. Fiore which he had certainly earned. He was quite generous to the Oratory in his bequests. He was attended in his last illness by the priest who serves as Rector of the oratory. As to the murdered Fr. Kunz, he too was Catholic and not schismatic. Many of his parishioners drive for hours from Wisconsin to Rockford to the Oratory to attend the Catholic Tridentine Mass.

What on earth does that linked article have to do with my defense of Catholicism from your little schismatic club?

As to your ritual and unfounded attacks on my posts, claiming that I am proven wrong, let's re-word your attack and make it more accurate. I disagree with the fantasies of the SSPX schism and its excommunicated leaders as you do not. On ONE occasion, I was corrected by one of you when I posted that Archbishop Lefebvre had liberalized annulment procedures as a judge of the Rota. It turned out that there were two Archbishop Lefebvres and your hero was not the one responsible for liberalizing annulments. I promptly conceded that the correction appeared truthful and accurate and that dead Marcel was apparently innocent of that. Of course, that does not make Marcel one iota less schismatic or excommunicated but I confess a bias toward exercises of papal authority as a Catholic and reject the notion that an excommunicated archbishop and his illicitly consecrated and excommunicated partners in ecclesiastical crime OR their dupes have anything whatsoever to say in rendering teaching authority in the actual Roman Catholic Church.

In any event, any personal failings of mine in argument are not imputed to the Teaching Magisterium of the Church itself any more than are the failings of your excommunicated leaders. Catholicism is Catholicism. Schism is schism. Excommunication is excommunication. If you want to argue that being wrong as to one matter makes me or anyone likely to be wrong in all matters, feel free but it isn't much of an argument. If that is your best shot, it limps.

What any of us Catholics (not schismatics) are doing here in attacking the fantasies (charitable term) of the schism is defense of the Roman Catholic Faith and the Roman Catholic Church. We are entitled to do that so long as the solidly American, solidly Christian and solidly conservative non-Catholic ownership here tolerates the arguments among Catholics on what is supposed, primarily, to be a conservative political website on which political conservatives of whatever other characteristics are able to conspire together towards the victory of conservatism and defeat of its enemies in the public square.

If you are going to try to undermine the good name of the Roman Catholic Church by claiming that the vipers of SSPX are "Catholic" in spite of the formal declaration of Pope John Paul II in Ecclesia Dei to the contrary, if you are going to continue your attacks on JP II even after his death (after all, he excommunicated your heroes in defiance, just who did he THINK he was?), if you are going to scandalize others by insisting that the schism is not a schism and that the excommunicated are not excommunicated and that somehow the teaching authority (there is none) of the excommunicati somehow trumps the teaching authority of the papacy, then you eserve response. You are getting that response. You don't like the response one little bit for suggesting that you too are subject to papal authority to the extent that you claim Catholicism. Tough. Obey or continue to take a hike. The Church will continue to survive nicely without you SSPX adherents. It is guaranteed on the very Highest Authority.

Finally, that you have, perhaps, satisfied your anti-Catholic prejudices that in disagreeing with me or any other actual Catholic, you must be right because you are you, you have proven NOTHING to be wrong, whatever you or any of your colleagues may please your(him/her)self to imagine.

[murphE]

Hi sugar plum, if you think I'm going to read all that you're out of your mind. Have a swell night.

[Gerard.P]

Sonny Boy,

You don't know what Catholicism is. It's just hilarious reading your puffery.

It's like watching blind tabletennis.

You sir have no concept of Catholicism. You believe in the Magisterium of SuckerChurch.

Marcel is quite dead to the flesh and more than likely interceding for his persecutors.

But Black Elk will be dust in the ground one day as well and he will have to face Christ who just may have "Dead Marcel" decide whether or not his intercession will sway Christ to let your sorry petooty in the door.

Probably not, SuckerChurch is intent on separating itself from the Mystical Body of Christ.

Here's some advice. Learn something. Anything.

It will be so much more interesting than your boring little boy who's jealous drivel.

[Gerard.P]

Don't worry. I read it. (well, most of it) Nothing new.

Just rancid quackery.

[BlackElk]

You know, that is a good analogy. The CCPA priests also say the Tridentine Mass just as the Lefebvrites do and neither is insulated by that fact any more than actual Catholics attending indult Masses (or even SSPX Masses) who are in communion with the Holy See and with their diocesan bishops are by connection to the Mass of our ancestors tarred with the brush of schism.

I would not subsidize the CCPA or sponsoring dioceses and I would not subsidize the scismatic SSPX run by the excommunicati. If those who reside in such dioceses or are stuck with SSPX saying the only reverent Masses in town while trying to pry Catholics from the Church into the schism want to avoid such disreputable repositories for their money, they can send their donations to the support of the Church to the Rockford Diocese as a thank you for Bishop Doran's general permission to his priests to say the Tridentine Mass without further permission and for his orthodoxy OR to TAN Books and Publishers (as donations or to purchase books and CDs) for the good and wonderfully Catholic work TAN does in a difficult market.

If anyone feels that such contributions may not satisfy one's moral obligation to obey the Church commandment to contribute to the support of the Church, get to know a good priest in your locale and remember that Father has to eat. Bring him good food to sustain him in his Catholic work and the diocese cannot very easily tax away part of the food or gasoline or heating oil or whatever you donate in kind for purposes inimical to the Faith.

[murphE]

The CCPA priests also say the Tridentine Mass

prove it.

[murphE]

Sorry, I read that wrong, I thought you were saying the underground Church in China says the NO. Mea culpa.

[BlackElk]

Jealous of what????? Jealous of SSPX schismatics or their excommunicated leaders who have rejected the promises of Christ to HIS Church (not to your schism)? ROFLMAO.

Who else do you suppose will join dead excomunicated Marcel on an advisory board to Jesus Christ in deciding whom Jesus Christ will admit to heaven??? Will Marcel's confreres be Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Julian the Apostate, Mrs. Arkansas Antichrist, Caligula, Arius and others likeminded?

Go back to your little clubhouses every Sunday, commiserate with one another and have your little pity parties. The Church will survive (the one HQd in the Vatican). You are not needed.

BTW, I am likely older than you but in any event, my dad passed on some years ago, safe in the bosom of the oman Catholic Church. Take the schoolyard macho on your permanent hike.

[BlackElk]

See, the way it works is that when I was wrong on which Archbishop Lefebvre loosened the standards for annulments and wrongly blamed Marcel Lefebvre for that and was corrected, I accepted the correction promptly.

Now you, having been wrong, have corrected yourself promptly which is probably an even more praiseworthy method of operation.

Neither one of us can be suggested to be wrong generally simply because each was once wrong and admitted it.

BTW, I have no idea what sort of Mass is said by the Roman Catholic Church priests in China. I suppose that they might say either Mass but, on this at least, I am willing to take your word for it. As for me, the important thing is that the Chinese (actually) Catholic priests (who, I believe, you are referencing as the underground Church in China) do say Mass in whatever rite validly. If you have SSPX priests there, likewise (which I do not doubt regardless of the irregularities of SSPX).

[BlackElk]

See, the way it works is that when I was wrong on which Archbishop Lefebvre loosened the standards for annulments and wrongly blamed Marcel Lefebvre for that and was corrected, I accepted the correction promptly.

Now you, having been wrong, have corrected yourself promptly which is probably an even more praiseworthy method of operation.

Neither one of us can be suggested to be wrong generally simply because each was once wrong and admitted it.

BTW, I have no idea what sort of Mass is said by the Roman Catholic Church priests in China. I suppose that they might say either Mass but, on this at least, I am willing to take your word for it. As for me, the important thing is that the Chinese (actually) Catholic priests (who, I believe, you are referencing as the underground Church in China) do say Mass in whatever rite validly. If you have SSPX priests there, likewise (which I do not doubt regardless of the irregularities of SSPX).

[BlackElk]

So much pain! So much anger at Holy Mother the Church! Been there. Done that. I recovered. You can recover too! Stop taking those SSPX pills.

If you want to get really angry, review Pope St. Pius X's Pascendi Domenici Gregis (1907) and its syllabus of errors: Lamentabile Sane. See how Pope St. Pius X constructed a careful plan to stamp out the Modernist heresy (the synthesis of all heresies as he called it) complete with Loyalty Oaths for priests, reports to His Holiness by all diocesan ordinaries every three years as to progress in stamping out the Modernist heresy and then the tragic death of Pope St. Pius X and his replacement by the worst pope of the 20th Century: Cardinal della Chiesa as Benedict XV who cancelled the antiModernist program and allowed Modernism breathing room to burst forth forty years after della Chiesa died. Paul VI and John XXIII look like heroes of the Faith when compared to della Chiesa.

You seem very eager in the last sentence of your first paragraph to concede to some of Luther's false claims. Why?

[BlackElk]

This is a forum. If you don't want to be answered in your schismatic pretenses by anyone here, don't post. I will answer you whenever I please.

If you did value my pontifications, I would have to double check my premises. Pontifications???? Is that word related to pontiff? No wonder you are so offended!

To set the record straight: I am not JP II. If I were, I would have more trouble posting. I am also not B-16. I am proud however to render obedience and respect to each of them as any Catholic surely would. Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia.

[BlackElk]

Whoever may send an SSPXer on a schismatic mission to corrupt actually Catholic people will NOT be God. You can take that to the bank.

Is your first fantasy a sort of reverse paranoia????? [There are millions of schismatics, all ten feet tall and they ARE out to get you!] God won't let the SSPX get us (He promised) so why should actual Catholics be concerned about SSPX's self-vision as SSPX Almighty?

[onyx]

FOTFL! You are GREAT! I still love reading your posts. Such wit and humor.

[Gerard.P]

Jealous of what????? Jealous of SSPX schismatics or their excommunicated leaders who have rejected the promises of Christ to HIS Church (not to your schism)? ROFLMAO.

Here's why you are jealous. Because you know the hapless bench of bishops and the impotent Curia and the disastrous papacies of the last 40+ years have left you in shambles and cut off from the roots of the Faith. Deep down, you know they are right and you didn't have the courage to fight for the Faith. So, you've compromised yourself and you'll fight tooth and nail to justify it. Because of that, you aren't ready to face the fact that you've aided the Adversary in his attempt to dismantle the Faith. It's a shame, you were given the grace to know better and you've pushed it away. Hence the anger and vitriol. If the SSPX were so insignificant, you wouldn't waste so much energy trying to bury them. You're jealous because you were the one who rejected Christ and his promises and bought into lies that sound like easier promises of Christ in an organizational structure that has switch sold the people in the pews.

Who else do you suppose will join dead excomunicated Marcel on an advisory board to Jesus Christ in deciding whom Jesus Christ will admit to heaven???

I don't know. I would suppose it might be any number of people you were ignorant about and calumniated. Hey, Christ may not even bother with you. One look and you'll be the guy downstairs' dessert if you don't die in the right state. You do believe that don't you? That is Catholic teaching that you may go to Hell.

Will Marcel's confreres be Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Julian the Apostate, Mrs. Arkansas Antichrist, Caligula, Arius and others likeminded?

I'd ask you to prove how LeFebvre was like-minded but you are always short on facts. But if you want to play the guilt by association ploy, I believe it was JPII who praised Martin Luther's fine qualities as a theologian.

Go back to your little clubhouses every Sunday, commiserate with one another and have your little pity parties.

You are sooo jealous of those "little clubhouses" Admittedly, we don't have the Cheerios all over the pews and we don't have the chicks in tube tops and flip flops going to Communion and we don't have the priests that give a 1 minute sermon (I mean "homily" ) because "the game" is coming on. But after decades of deteriorating Novus Ordo nonsense like that. I returned to what I was born into, The Catholic Faith. If we have pity parties, it's sympathy for your ilk. The weak, the hopelessly confused who are the pawnd of the wicked.

The Church will survive (the one HQd in the Vatican). You are not needed.

More puffery. You simply don't know Catholicism. You only know SuckerChurch. It's not that SuckerChurch doesn't need us. SuckerChurch can't stand us. We put the lie to SuckerChurch and rip the mask off.

But don't worry, the SSPX and others by God's divine providence were raised to prevent the total overthrow of the Church by SuckerChurch. So, they'll preserve the Faith for when you've grown disillusioned with the Great Facade.

BTW, I am likely older than you but in any event

Probably. But you don't act like it. You write in the style of an upset child who's girlfriend dumped him for a former boyfriend. It's the same overcompensation, demonizing and puffery. "who needs her?.."

my dad passed on some years ago, safe in the bosom of the Roman Catholic Church.

Requiescat in Pace

Take the schoolyard macho on your permanent hike.

Uh....That's the only language you seem to understand. You are the one that strolled on these threads with an axe to grind. I tried to engage you in dialogue peacefully and you were nothing but uncharitable in your tirades. I asked you to debate the issues and you didn't even try. It's textbook bully. All that's needed is somone to point out how you verbally blow your nose all over these threads and produce nothing of value. That's what I've attempted to do.

By your posts you revel in the deaths of others. You purposely attempt unprovoked cruelty. You make yourself the spokesman of the Roman Catholic Church on who is and who is not "wanted". The hubris! Where were you when God laid the foundations of the world? Ugh, it's absolutely demonic.

You type "schism" and "obedience" and you prove you don't know what you are talking about.

Your pathetic, sickening and rancid diatribes are echoes of the worst anti-Catholic Protestants I've ever dealt with over the years. The ones who only want to throw stones because they are bereft of cohesive thoughts. But that's just more evidence of the Crisis in the Church today. You've imitated Protestantism to the point where you no longer recognize Catholicism. You believe in false guarantees that Christ never made about the orthodoxy and wisdom of Popes. You sir, are the poster boy for why the SSPX are correct about everything. Your example makes the best case for them. Who would want to drink in the poison that you've imbibed?

You can proclaim your membership as desperately as you want. And it does come off desperate. You may be baptized, but you don't exhibit any gifts of the Holy Spirit from your confirmation and you don't exhibit a single hallmark of what Catholicism actually teaches vs. the fads being promoted in these dark days of mass apostasy.

I'll pray for you tonight.