Traditionalist Catholic priestly society (SSPX) well acquainted with new pope

Kansas City Star ^ | May 12, 2005 | STEVE BRISENDINE

[gbcdoj]

I thought you were saying the underground Church in China ays the NO.

http://www.cardinalkungfoundation.org/articles/newsletter/let00xms.htm

The majestic shining of the sun on Oct 1 reminded me of what happened on May 23, 1995 at the Shrine of Our Lady of Dong Lu in Hebei province in China. On that day, during a Mass concelebrated by four underground bishops and approximately 110 priests, and attended by some 30,000 pilgrims, there was a spectacular transformation of the sun, very similar to what happened at Fatima. A year later, the Chinese government destroyed the shrine.

That, of course, doesn't happen in the old rite...

Bishop Fellay SSPX Update Part II

For us the big, big problem is to get in touch with the underground Catholics. There you have something which is really puzzling. The "Patriotic Church"-the prop of the Communists and the one which is outside the Church-has kept the Tridentine Mass. But the underground Catholic Church has taken the new Mass in order to show its attachment to Rome! It's crazy! What can we do under such circumstances? We come there with the Tridentine Mass, so we give the impression of being with the Communist patriotics! It's upside down.

[Dominick]

Sure I will agree with that (there is always those whose motives leave much to be desired) but I will add when a Bishop eliminates without question the eternal Sacrifice of the Mass there will be those to complain about the disobedience of dissenters and rebels.

A Bishop does not have that power, and neither does a Pope. The Novus Ordo Rite, the Tridentine Rite, and the host of Rites of the Church all have this as the genesis of the Mass. It is impossible to alter the Mass where this would not happen, because it it's code it intends to be a sacrifice, and the Priest intends to do what the Church does.

I think the prophecies do not refer to a situation like China, where an underground Church continues to operate, but a situation where people abandon the Church, much like people abandoned Christ in shouting, "Free Barabbas".

[murphE]

I thought we agreed not to post to each other.

[murphE]

It's upside down.

Ain't that the truth.

[gbcdoj]

No, what I said was not to post to me asking for replies if you weren't going to answer substantially in turn: If you aren't interested in a two-way dialogue, don't ping me anymore. We are doomed to perpetual misunderstanding, perhaps?

[murphE]

We are doomed to perpetual misunderstanding, perhaps?

Perhaps. So why not just not ping me. If you feel the need to post an objection to what I say, ping an interested 3rd party instead of me.

[Dominick]

Steel sharpens steel?

[gbcdoj]

When the objective is to correct a factual misstatement that you have made, that wouldn't make much sense, would it?

[murphE]

When the objective is to correct a factual misstatement that you have made, that wouldn't make much sense, would it?

Sure it would. According to you I'd most likely just misunderstand your post, so responding to me would be fruitless, yet by posting to an interested 3rd you'd still be able to "correct" what I say for your readily accepting audience of readers.

[murphE]

I am unfamiliar with that expression.

[Dominick]

King Solomon, I don't have the exact verse...

[murphE]

Could you explain it to me please?

[Dominick]

My application of "steel sharpens steel" is that two people paying attention to the same topic, engaged in discussion enrich each other when debated in good faith.

Way back when Steel was rare, people used steel sharpening tools made from steel, and not hard marble.

[murphE]

Thank-you. I learn something old every day. = D

[BlackElk]

You know what? You rejected the Church founded by Jesus Christ and guaranteed by Him. He gave you free will to use or abuse. You took one from Category B and rejected His promises. Stay lost. It will be no skin off the nose of any actual Catholic.

Your bile is lightweight because of its schismatic nature and its rejection of Church and pope. Despising papal authority is NOT Catholicism. If the SSPX dupes ever managed to see one of theirs elected pope (fat chance of that!), he would be without effective authority since the schizzies themselves have set the pattern of attack on papal authority. What lie will the schizzies develop in such an unlikely event to shore up one of their own who will watch every "progressive" heretic bishop do what the schizzies' own schismatic and excommunicated bishops have done to consecrate renegade bishops and ordain renegade priests and pretend to be Catholic? You are the ecclesiastical Mordreds of our time.

I don't think that the gifts of the Holy Spirit include kissing the backsides of schismatics and excommunicati.

Gerard P. and Marcel the Rightfully Excommunicated OR John Paul II and Benedict XVI? I am going with those popes. It is a sure bet. It isn't as though the schismatic deserve to be taken seriously.

You should become a novelist. You promote fantasies (however ludicrous) far better than you practice pop psychobabble.

I belong to the same Catholic Church that I belonged to from baptism in about 1946. It is headquartered in the Vatican and headed by this pope as it was headed by Pius XII when I was born and by John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II and Benedict XVI ever since. Before the criminal consecrations at Econe, I was actually sympathetic to now dead Marcel. The criminal consecrations made quite obvious that SSPXism is a false God and so was Marcel. I am not going to trade the Roman Catholic Church and its papacy for Marcel and his petty angers over his offended tastes.

It was rebellious Marcel and his dupes who followed the example of Lucifer against God and of Luther, et al., in their attacks on papacy and Church.

As to The Great Facade, neither Chris Ferraro nor Tom Woods have the guts to go formally schismatic but each is pleased to promote the views of many schismatics while claiming Catholicism. Ferraro even tried to shop the merely disobedient Fr. Gruner door-to-door at the Curial offices to get the nonresponse deserved by the Gruners who start off by disobeying legitimate authority and their vows of obedience and end up as eccentric as loons.

Yes, I believe in hell and I believe that many go there. You ought to review the bidding lest you join them by purposeful rejection of the Church when you knew better or ought to have. If I don't die in the right state, I will go to hell. Same with you and everyone else and already (one way or another) the same for dead rebellious and and apparently unrepentant Marcel. Whatever God decides as to any of us or Marcel will be based upon His knowledge and not our speculations but I feel safer siding with His Vicar on Earth than anyone should feel by siding with the criminal sect of Econe.

AND, don't tell me about "Cheerios" in the pews which may reveal more than you might like as to your rejection of the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo consecrations. I once made the mistake in recent years on the way to Connecticut from Logan Airport in Boston of attending an apparent Mass of obligation at the once quite Catholic (and now the little Church of Horrors) Church in Boston which allegedly harbors John Francois Kerry and loaves of leavened French bread are "consecrated" there and passed out by left-termite feminists at the head of each pew so that attendees could rip off hunks of "consecrated" French bread, dropping the crumbs on the floor. Of course, it could have been worse and proper elements might have been actually consecrated and treated that way. As the environmentalist "hymns" were sung and scrolled on a projection screen with seagulls flying over the beach, the announcements revealed that all of the articles sold at the Xmas Bazaar in the basement (in 1991) were made by the actual hands of (breathlessly) the actual Nicaraguan Sandanistas and every penny would go to the cause.

This was Bernard Cardinal Law's Boston where NAMBLA's founders included Fr. Shanley, where Fr, Geoghan was molesting children to a fare thee well and Boston College was referring coeds to Brookline abortion mills. Note that actual Traditional Catholics (the ones in communion with the Holy See) are far angrier at the Bernard Cardinal Laws, the Bishop Anthony Pillas, the Roger Cardinal McPhonys, and their ilk than the smug, self-worshipping schizzies will ever be. To you, these disgraces are proof of your impious charges against Church and popes. To actual Catholics, they are the primary set of ecclesiastical vipers to be dealt with. They are the business of actual Catholics and not that of schismatics or excommunicati who are, by definition, not members of the Catholic Church, since you and they have rejected the Catholic Church.

SSPX was raised by someone, someone preternatural who was the original spokesman for "Non serviam." Not in your lifetime, not in my lifetime and not in God's lifetime will I ever resort to the Marcellian schism. Hold your breath waiting if you like. The schism is not preserving the Faith. It is a parasite feeding off the edges of the Faith while rejecting the Church and popes entrusted with the Faith. Nothing new there. Catholics cannot stand you and with good reason. Attack my mother and I will not admire you. Oh, wait, that is exactly what you did.

If I am the poster boy you describe, then I serve a purpose by helping to separate the Catholic wheat from the SSPX schismatic chaff.

It is not uncharitable to treat the schismatics and excommunicati as, well, schismatics and excommunicati. You were expecting a little hand-holding, a little Kumbaya, a little: "There, there, poor baby?" Look elsewhere. Charity consists not in telling those who are in error what they want to hear but in telling them what they must hear. You reject that charity. So be it!

Unprovoked cruelty?????? No one goes to hell without sending him/herself there and then it is God's judgment upon the misuse of free will by the individual that paves the individual's personal road to hell. If God renders judgment, His judgment must be better than yours, mine or even Marcel's or Usurper Williamson's.

By your smartass elocution "SuckerChurch" as a reference to the Roman Catholic Church of recent decades, you prove your rejection of the Church and your embrace of its enemies.

The energy I spend on your little platoon is necessitated only by the schismatic passion for persistently embracing and practicing the publishing of scandal (including the claim that you are Catholic) against the Roman Catholic Church and its recent popes in service to your dark lords, the SSPX excommunicated bishops (arch or otherwise) and their rage at papal authority particularly when applied against their rebellion. As Richard Weaver wrote: Ideas Have Consequences. That includes toxic ideas like SSPX's impious vanities.

Shambles?????? Would that equate to dying unrepentant after being excommunicated like a certain French archbishop????? Would that include creating a sect of make-believe Catholics whose very existence defames the legitimate Roman Catholic Church (HQd in the Vatican) and then re-creating the usual self-serving lies to make believe that SSPX has become the Church and that the indefectible Church has, well, defected all because your tastes almighty have been offended.

You wanted a peaceful discussion here in which I would join you in discussing why Rome is wrong and Econe is right, thereby making believe that the schism has standing to argue against the Church????? I did not accommodate you in your effort to undermine the Faith of Catholics and seduce them into joining you in the darknes of schism. What can I say other than darned right! As people who have rejected the Roman Catholic Church, you have nothing, absolutely nothing to offer and Catholics should not accommodate you by making believe that you have something to offer. I paid you and other SSPXers no respect because you deserve no respect. This is not self-esteem time at the local gummint kindergarten.

You might consider the even more "traditional" Society of Saint Pius I (alleged here recently) which requires Mass to be said by the rubrics used in the first two centuries underground in catacombs not in these new-fangled above-ground Churches. Their motto is: "To be more tradional, you would have to be Jewish!"

Lefebvre was, of course, part of the same club as Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et al., because of their mutual hatred of the papacy (particularly when it had the nerve to disagree with each of them). Each led numbers of Catholics out of the true Faith. You guys are nothing new. You only THINK you are different from ecclesiastical miscreants past. You keep telling yourselves you are Catholic when you are not.

Deep down, I know the schizzes are right???? Lyndon Johnso had a response to Barry Gldwater's "In your heart, you know he is right." The response of LBJ was: In your guts, you know he is nuts. Catholics KNOW that SSPX is nuts.

I know that your temper tantrums are among my rewards. Thank you.

Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia: Since Simon bar Jonah was renamed Peter by Jesus Christ, ever since, now and at all times future. The scandal of popes like John IX and Alexander VI was a punishment and a chastisement of actual Catholics sent by God in response to the sins of the actually faithful. Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia.

[BlackElk]

Happy to be of service and entertainment value.

Has your husband fully recovered?

God Bless you and yours, as always.

[onyx]

Yes, a full and total recovery! Miraculous actually.
Thank you for asking and special thanks for your prayers.

May God bless you and yours too and keep on entertaining me,
but you must know, I also learn a lot from your postings.

[Mark in the Old South]

Vatican II did not give the approval to make the changes they did implement. Examples:
1. Religious habits were to be modified not eliminated.
2. Vernacular was to be permitted IF (and only if) it was good for the faith.
3. The Canon of the Mass was to remain as is (no vernacular).
4. Female Altar servers never authorized.
5. Communion in the hand, outrageous.
6. Gregorian chant was to be used more, not less.

I could go on but what is the point these things have been rehashed long before. The faith is dying in these churches. I know it because I have seen it before and lived with it for years when I was Episcopalian. Scripture convinced me RCC was correct in doctrine but when I went to a RCC Church I had the same sense the "something is missing" "the actors all know their lines but the play has no passion"

You are going to have a hard time overcoming that. I have been to the NO churches but very few critics of SSPX or the Indult can say the same.

[Mark in the Old South]

Re: "...when the vast majority of the people who now affilate with the SSPX return to Rome,"

I am mystified how you can "RETURN" to a place you never left.

[Dominick]

You seem to think I am a critic of the Indult.

I enjoy the Indult Mass, but, I am not going to trade in fidelity to the successor of Peter, for the form of the Sacrifice of the Mass. The Mass is the Sacrifice of Cavalry, re-presented, in any rite.

An illicit Mass, as I have said, is an abuse. It is particularly tragic that people "escape" abuses in parishes, to go to schismatic chapels, where the whole affair is an abuse in all but form.