Traditionalist Catholic priestly society (SSPX) well acquainted with new pope

KANSAS CITY, Mo. - For all its disagreements with the Roman Catholic Church - and the list is long - the Society of St. Pius X has always maintained its loyalty to the papacy.

Now, with the election of Pope Benedict XVI, the ultra-traditionalist priestly society - considered a breakaway group by the Vatican - sees "a gleam of hope" that the changes wrought by the Second Vatican Council will be undone.

One Catholic scholar doubts that will happen, though - especially given that the last time the society dealt with then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, he was trying to persuade its founder to accept those changes.

"To try to reconcile the traditionalists with the church would be an implicit rejection of Vatican II, and that's not going to happen," said William Dinges, associate professor of theology and religious studies at the Catholic University of America.

The Society of St. Pius X, founded in Switzerland in 1969 and first recognized by the Vatican in 1970, maintains its American headquarters in Kansas City. The movement, named for the pope who wrote against modernism in a 1907 encyclical, claims between 1 million and 2 million lay adherents worldwide, 20,000 to 30,000 in the United States.

The society's Superior General, Bishop Bernard Fellay, welcomed Ratzinger's election in a statement issued April 19 from the society's international headquarters in Menzingen, Switzerland.

The statement, which appears on the society's American and international Web sites, said Fellay "sees there a gleam of hope that we may find a way out of the profound crisis which is shaking the Catholic Church, of which some aspects have been spoken of by the former Head for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith."

A lay secretary in Kansas City, who asked that his name not be used because of the society's rules, said the society would have no comment beyond anything published on the society's Web sites and in its newsletters.

The Society of St. Pius X's profession of loyalty to the pope sets it apart from most other traditionalist movements, who either consider the position vacant or have elected "popes" of their own.

A former society seminarian, David Allan Bawden, has claimed to be "Pope Michael I" since 1990 and maintains his "Vatican in Exile" in Delia, Kan., about 90 minutes west of Kansas City.

Still, even a cursory review of the Society of Saint Pius X's positions shows how deep the divide runs between it and the post-Vatican II church.

The order's late founder, French-born Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, publicly rejected the church's new Mass, which replaced the 16th-century Tridentine Mass in 1971.

The new Mass may be celebrated in any language, while the Tridentine rite is celebrated only in Latin.

There are other differences: In the Tridentine Mass, the priest faces the altar - away from worshippers - and communion is given only in the mouth, never in the hand. There are no lay readers or communion servers.

The Society of St. Pius also opposes the Vatican's efforts to reach out to Orthodox and Protestant Christians and other religions. One statement on its Web site defends the Inquisition, while another expresses support for capital punishment.

The Vatican banned the Tridentine rite from 1971 to 1984, although Lefebre's followers and other traditionalist groups continued to use it. In 1984, Pope John Paul II said the Tridentine rite could be used in special circumstances.

The Society of St. Pius X dismissed the Vatican's move as a ploy to undermine traditionalists. Still, more than three dozen of the society's priests and seminarians did leave in 1988 to reconcile with the Vatican and form the Fraternity of St. Peter, which emphasizes the Tridentine Mass.

Lefebvre was suspended by Pope Paul VI in 1976, along with his newly ordained priests, and excommunicated in 1988 after consecrating four bishops - also excommunicated, along with a Catholic bishop who supported Lefebvre - against Pope John Paul II's orders.

Several months earlier, the archbishop and Ratzinger signed a protocol that made reconciliation with the Vatican seem imminent, but Lefebvre rejected the accord over a clause that gave Vatican representatives the majority on a commission to settle differences in interpretation of Vatican II documents.

He and his followers' excommunication is considered the church's first major schism since the "Old Catholics" broke from the Vatican after its proclamation of the doctrine of papal infallibility in 1870. The society denies a schism exists, however, saying Lefebvre's disobedience was necessary to deal with a crisis in the church and did not constitute an outright rejection of the pope's authority.

The Society of St. Pius X also contends that as a cardinal, Benedict agreed in principle in 1988 that the order had the right to ordain priests and bishops for service to the larger church.

However, in a 1986 letter, Ratzinger insisted that Lefebvre accept the reforms of Vatican II, "the texts of which are magisterial and enjoy the highest doctrinal authority."

"The society is intransigent on the liturgy issue and the (Vatican) council issue," he said. "Those are two - in my mind - insurmountable issues to any long-term reconciliation."

You know what? You rejected the Church founded by Jesus Christ and guaranteed by Him. He gave you free will to use or abuse. You took one from Category B and rejected His promises. Stay lost. It will be no skin off the nose of any actual Catholic.

Your bile is lightweight because of its schismatic nature and its rejection of Church and pope. Despising papal authority is NOT Catholicism. If the SSPX dupes ever managed to see one of theirs elected pope (fat chance of that!), he would be without effective authority since the schizzies themselves have set the pattern of attack on papal authority. What lie will the schizzies develop in such an unlikely event to shore up one of their own who will watch every "progressive" heretic bishop do what the schizzies' own schismatic and excommunicated bishops have done to consecrate renegade bishops and ordain renegade priests and pretend to be Catholic? You are the ecclesiastical Mordreds of our time.

I don't think that the gifts of the Holy Spirit include kissing the backsides of schismatics and excommunicati.

Gerard P. and Marcel the Rightfully Excommunicated OR John Paul II and Benedict XVI? I am going with those popes. It is a sure bet. It isn't as though the schismatic deserve to be taken seriously.

You should become a novelist. You promote fantasies (however ludicrous) far better than you practice pop psychobabble.

I belong to the same Catholic Church that I belonged to from baptism in about 1946. It is headquartered in the Vatican and headed by this pope as it was headed by Pius XII when I was born and by John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II and Benedict XVI ever since. Before the criminal consecrations at Econe, I was actually sympathetic to now dead Marcel. The criminal consecrations made quite obvious that SSPXism is a false God and so was Marcel. I am not going to trade the Roman Catholic Church and its papacy for Marcel and his petty angers over his offended tastes.

It was rebellious Marcel and his dupes who followed the example of Lucifer against God and of Luther, et al., in their attacks on papacy and Church.

As to The Great Facade, neither Chris Ferraro nor Tom Woods have the guts to go formally schismatic but each is pleased to promote the views of many schismatics while claiming Catholicism. Ferraro even tried to shop the merely disobedient Fr. Gruner door-to-door at the Curial offices to get the nonresponse deserved by the Gruners who start off by disobeying legitimate authority and their vows of obedience and end up as eccentric as loons.

Yes, I believe in hell and I believe that many go there. You ought to review the bidding lest you join them by purposeful rejection of the Church when you knew better or ought to have. If I don't die in the right state, I will go to hell. Same with you and everyone else and already (one way or another) the same for dead rebellious and and apparently unrepentant Marcel. Whatever God decides as to any of us or Marcel will be based upon His knowledge and not our speculations but I feel safer siding with His Vicar on Earth than anyone should feel by siding with the criminal sect of Econe.

AND, don't tell me about "Cheerios" in the pews which may reveal more than you might like as to your rejection of the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo consecrations. I once made the mistake in recent years on the way to Connecticut from Logan Airport in Boston of attending an apparent Mass of obligation at the once quite Catholic (and now the little Church of Horrors) Church in Boston which allegedly harbors John Francois Kerry and loaves of leavened French bread are "consecrated" there and passed out by left-termite feminists at the head of each pew so that attendees could rip off hunks of "consecrated" French bread, dropping the crumbs on the floor. Of course, it could have been worse and proper elements might have been actually consecrated and treated that way. As the environmentalist "hymns" were sung and scrolled on a projection screen with seagulls flying over the beach, the announcements revealed that all of the articles sold at the Xmas Bazaar in the basement (in 1991) were made by the actual hands of (breathlessly) the actual Nicaraguan Sandanistas and every penny would go to the cause.

This was Bernard Cardinal Law's Boston where NAMBLA's founders included Fr. Shanley, where Fr, Geoghan was molesting children to a fare thee well and Boston College was referring coeds to Brookline abortion mills. Note that actual Traditional Catholics (the ones in communion with the Holy See) are far angrier at the Bernard Cardinal Laws, the Bishop Anthony Pillas, the Roger Cardinal McPhonys, and their ilk than the smug, self-worshipping schizzies will ever be. To you, these disgraces are proof of your impious charges against Church and popes. To actual Catholics, they are the primary set of ecclesiastical vipers to be dealt with. They are the business of actual Catholics and not that of schismatics or excommunicati who are, by definition, not members of the Catholic Church, since you and they have rejected the Catholic Church.

SSPX was raised by someone, someone preternatural who was the original spokesman for "Non serviam." Not in your lifetime, not in my lifetime and not in God's lifetime will I ever resort to the Marcellian schism. Hold your breath waiting if you like. The schism is not preserving the Faith. It is a parasite feeding off the edges of the Faith while rejecting the Church and popes entrusted with the Faith. Nothing new there. Catholics cannot stand you and with good reason. Attack my mother and I will not admire you. Oh, wait, that is exactly what you did.

If I am the poster boy you describe, then I serve a purpose by helping to separate the Catholic wheat from the SSPX schismatic chaff.

It is not uncharitable to treat the schismatics and excommunicati as, well, schismatics and excommunicati. You were expecting a little hand-holding, a little Kumbaya, a little: "There, there, poor baby?" Look elsewhere. Charity consists not in telling those who are in error what they want to hear but in telling them what they must hear. You reject that charity. So be it!

Unprovoked cruelty?????? No one goes to hell without sending him/herself there and then it is God's judgment upon the misuse of free will by the individual that paves the individual's personal road to hell. If God renders judgment, His judgment must be better than yours, mine or even Marcel's or Usurper Williamson's.

By your smartass elocution "SuckerChurch" as a reference to the Roman Catholic Church of recent decades, you prove your rejection of the Church and your embrace of its enemies.

The energy I spend on your little platoon is necessitated only by the schismatic passion for persistently embracing and practicing the publishing of scandal (including the claim that you are Catholic) against the Roman Catholic Church and its recent popes in service to your dark lords, the SSPX excommunicated bishops (arch or otherwise) and their rage at papal authority particularly when applied against their rebellion. As Richard Weaver wrote: Ideas Have Consequences. That includes toxic ideas like SSPX's impious vanities.

Shambles?????? Would that equate to dying unrepentant after being excommunicated like a certain French archbishop????? Would that include creating a sect of make-believe Catholics whose very existence defames the legitimate Roman Catholic Church (HQd in the Vatican) and then re-creating the usual self-serving lies to make believe that SSPX has become the Church and that the indefectible Church has, well, defected all because your tastes almighty have been offended.

You wanted a peaceful discussion here in which I would join you in discussing why Rome is wrong and Econe is right, thereby making believe that the schism has standing to argue against the Church????? I did not accommodate you in your effort to undermine the Faith of Catholics and seduce them into joining you in the darknes of schism. What can I say other than darned right! As people who have rejected the Roman Catholic Church, you have nothing, absolutely nothing to offer and Catholics should not accommodate you by making believe that you have something to offer. I paid you and other SSPXers no respect because you deserve no respect. This is not self-esteem time at the local gummint kindergarten.

You might consider the even more "traditional" Society of Saint Pius I (alleged here recently) which requires Mass to be said by the rubrics used in the first two centuries underground in catacombs not in these new-fangled above-ground Churches. Their motto is: "To be more tradional, you would have to be Jewish!"

Lefebvre was, of course, part of the same club as Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, et al., because of their mutual hatred of the papacy (particularly when it had the nerve to disagree with each of them). Each led numbers of Catholics out of the true Faith. You guys are nothing new. You only THINK you are different from ecclesiastical miscreants past. You keep telling yourselves you are Catholic when you are not.

Deep down, I know the schizzes are right???? Lyndon Johnso had a response to Barry Gldwater's "In your heart, you know he is right." The response of LBJ was: In your guts, you know he is nuts. Catholics KNOW that SSPX is nuts.

I know that your temper tantrums are among my rewards. Thank you.

Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia: Since Simon bar Jonah was renamed Peter by Jesus Christ, ever since, now and at all times future. The scandal of popes like John IX and Alexander VI was a punishment and a chastisement of actual Catholics sent by God in response to the sins of the actually faithful. Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia.

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