Any Ex-Church of Christ at FR

[marajade]

How do you Biblically know that you are saved?

[marajade]

It wasn't about the church bldgs. Nor was it about the money at first either, although later I think the money was there for Kip and other leaders. Many are very well off. Kip and many others will not have to work another day of their life.

It was just how they did it. Kip had the first 20 in boston in his home. It expanded from there.

[Jedidah]

Relax, please.

You are sure of your salvation. Excellent. Rejoice in it. As Christ himself said, no one can pluck you out of his loving hand.

You can, of course, choose to wander out away from that protection. There are just too many references to "falling away" or "taking heed lest you fall" in the New Testament not to come to that conclusion. But you obviously are a faithful servant and have no such compulsion.

So be happy in the security that God's grace affords. Do good works for the sheer joy of obedience, as I do, not to "earn" your salvation, which is, of course, impossible. None of us can ever repay the sacrifice He made.

And get rid of the angst and anger at others who are striving to serve Him.

Blessings to you.

[Jedidah]

Those of us who have experienced the beauty of fine gospel acapella abhor instruments because they actually distract from the music.

But I do look forward to those harps in heaven.

[MN_Rightside]

I am not trying to be evassive. As was pointed out in another post, it is not a denomination. It is the attempt it being like the church at Corinth, or Ephesus, or Philipii. Not a denomintation based on man made creeds. I will answer this way. There are men that write in the forum that are in the Church. The site is not sponsored by the church of Christ, but I suspect most of them worship at a local congregation that has the name on the door of "The church of Christ".

[ClancyJ]

But why move into a congregation and turn it and then move to another. That has to be because they could use the building facilities without having to rent new space, and to try and pull the regular members away to them. Faster to get people and when the people come, their contributions come with them. (Money)

It scares me because it is so insidious. In fact, it makes me mad. Disagreeing with the belief is one thing - to sabotage it for their own purposes is another.

And, to boot, they are in fact a cult which is totally contrary to what the Church of Christ believes.

[GarySpFc]

One who has come to Christ and received His free gift of salvation has obeyed what Jesus has said.

The gift is free, but will you accept it? You say you do, but you put conditions on acceptance. As an example, someone gives you a gift of $10 million. They tell you all you have to do is go downtown to the bank and sign the papers. Don't you think it would be the height of arrpgance to tell your benefactor it is not a gift if you have to go downtown and pick up the gift.

[marajade]

You'd have to ask Kip. Although Kip is pretty much irrelevant now.

It was cheaper to lease meeting places, i.e, hotels, etc. than to build church buildings.

[Quester]

The gift is free, but will you accept it? You say you do, but you put conditions on acceptance.

What conditions were those ?

[ClancyJ]

How do you Biblically know that you are saved?

Not sure I understand if you mean as we accept Christ or now years later.

I know I am saved because of Mark 16:15-16 - Jesus talking to the eleven disciples - "He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Mark 16:16 - Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

As far as later in life as we live through mistakes etc., we still have the promise that we were saved and that Jesus will not allow anything to take us from Him.

Now, I am unclear on this but we can lose our salvation if we turn against God and deny Him and do not return for forgiveness.

We are not given free right to sin as the Holy Spirit now resides in the new Christian and therefore we are to keep ourselves pure and walk with Jesus through life. We can ask for the prayers of the church for forgiveness, we can ask God for forgiveness when we sin. Man is still not perfect and we fall far short of what God would wish - but we are His and He will forgive. We are so much closer to Jesus when we develop an ongoing relationship of walking with Him through life.

I can see this in my own life. As a young person I was baptised and did my best to do the right thing. Yet, I remember sitting in church and not understanding why people seemed to want to be there. I was there because I knew I should be. I did not have the continual glow of Christianity and would be bored, etc.

Yet, life changes you and often hits you very hard. When we go through those hard times, often there is nothing we can do but pray for help. We may not get the help we wanted but everytime I felt extremely close to Jesus. There was an unexplainable peace. I remember playing those hymns - Just a Closer Walk With Thee, and Rock of Ages - and the peace just rests your heart.

There were other really hard hits and each time I turned to Jesus to help me. Through these tragedies the good that came from them was that I was given a peace and comfort and at one point after a death I felt as if I was carried on a cushion for a few months. I could not see how I could continue living, but there was a cushion around me (or numbness).

Anyway, I now know why you see so many little old grandmothers sitting reading their Bibles - they have developed a close relationship to God through the hard times of life and enjoy reading the loved Bibles they have turned to so often.

[marajade]

Thanks for the response. It really is between you, your heart and God.

[ClancyJ]

The members of the second church are generally convinced that the members of the first church are going straight to hell, and won't talk to them.

So true. We are all a passionate lot aren't we? Hopefully God gets a laugh out of his children and their spats.

[gamarob1]

You sure have a need to treat others with derision.

You are treating the Gospel with derision. That's the greater offense. If you only knew...

Salvation is a gift of God, not dependent on our works, no, not even dependent on water baptism. That's the reality. Anything other is a false gospel

[GarySpFc]

"Please understand. Symbols are important. Some of them, like communion and baptism, illustrate the cross of Christ. They symbolize salvation, demonstrate salvation, even articulate salvation. But they do not impart salvation... [God] saves us, not because we trust in a symbol, but because we trust in a Savior.... ceremonies don't make me a Christian. 'God justifies the believer, not because of the worthiness of his belief, but because of [Christ's] worthiness.'" (Max Lucado, In His Grip pp 50-51).

Lucado is church of Christ. That said, he is not saying baptism is not necesarry. What he is saying is that it is the person behind the baptism who is the actor. Let me quote from the same book:

The Vow Has Been Made

Not only has a price been paid, a vow has been made. “Did you forget that all of us became part of Christ when we were baptized?” (Rom. 6:2).
Baptism was no casual custom, no ho-hum ritual. Baptism was, and is, “a pledge made to God from a good conscience” (1 Pet. 3:21 tjb).
Paul’s high regard for baptism is demonstrated in the fact that he knows all of his readers have been instructed in its importance. “You have been taught that when we were baptized into Christ we were baptized into his death” (Rom. 6:2 tjb, italics mine).
What form of amnesia is this? Like a bride horrified to see her new husband flirting with women at the wedding reception, Paul asks, “Did you forget your vows?” Indeed, baptism is a vow, a sacred vow of the believer to follow Christ. Just as a wedding celebrates the fusion of two hearts, baptism celebrates the union of sinner with Savior. We “became part of Christ when we were baptized” (v. 2).
Do the bride and groom understand all of the implications of the wedding? No. Do they know every challenge or threat they will face? No. But they know they love each other and vow to be faithful to the end.
When a willing heart enters the waters of baptism, does he know the implications of the vow? No. Does she know every temptation or challenge? No. But both know the love of God and are responding to him.
Please understand, it is not the act that saves us. But it is the act that symbolizes how we are saved! The invisible work of the Holy Spirit is visibly dramatized in the water. That plunge beneath the running waters was like a death; the moment’s pause while they swept overhead was like a burial; the standing erect once more in air and sunlight was a species of resurrection.3
 Remove your shoes, bow your head, and bend your knees; this is a holy event. Baptism is notar? Among her many sizzling words will likely be the question, “Have you forgotten what you said to me?”
Similarly God asks, “Does our union mean nothing to you? Is our covenant so fragile that you would choose the arms of a harlot over mine?”
Who, in their right mind, would want to abandon these vows? Who will care for you more than Christ? Have we forgotten what life was like before our baptism? Have we forgotten the mess we were in before we were united with him? I choose the word mess intentionally. May I share a mess I’m glad I am out of? My bachelor’s apartment. Lucado, M. (1996). In the grip of grace (114). Dallas, Tex.: Word Pub.

[gamarob1]

You can, of course, choose to wander out away from that protection. There are just too many references to "falling away" or "taking heed lest you fall" in the New Testament not to come to that conclusion.

No, I don't believe that, because each one can be examined in context of the rest of the verses, and the rest of the Word of God (i.e., your citing that we are "never plucked from His hand")

And get rid of the angst and anger at others who are striving to serve Him.

Fair enough. I will do that, if you tell Paul not to be so harsh with those teaching that circumcison is required for salvation. Paul told them to cut "it" ALL off, if removing a little piece of skin is going to save them. I think those who teach the water baptism false doctrine, NEED to be sharply rebuked, which is what I'm doing. Updating Paul's assessment would be, "if you think a little water is going to save you, will drowning yourself in it really do the job?"

A false gospel is ALWAYS dealt with strongly. God designed it that way, and I will defend that Gospel that saved MY soul, and the souls of countless others, since there is no other way.

[Quester]

Now, I am unclear on this but we can lose our salvation if we turn against God and deny Him ...

In what ways might we turn against God and deny Him ?

Would it look something like the following ... do you think ?

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Note that the writer says that it would be impossible to renew such as these.

[GarySpFc]

What conditions were those ?

You are objecting to the trip to the bank to pick up the money. Likewise, you object to baptism for receiving the gift. In both cases you object and say it is not a gift if you have to do anything, including picking up either gift.

[gamarob1]

You are objecting to the trip to the bank to pick up the money. Likewise, you object to baptism for receiving the gift. In both cases you object and say it is not a gift if you have to do anything, including picking up either gift

Nonsense! So you ARE saying that water baptism is required for salvation. Don't deny it.

False gospel...

[Oberon]

But I do look forward to those harps in heaven.

In hell, they get bagpipes.

[Quix]

Am not ex Church of Christ. But a host of my Mother's relatives are--including the one ministering at her funeral tomorrow morning.

They came out wholesale into Charismania and are doing much better with The Lord than ever in their C of C years. However, they have not made it beyond all the parochial infighting and carping seemingly so common in that group and in their immediate family.

But, it is conceivable that I could offer some insights from their transition, perspectives and experiences if you had some specific questions. It's an issue I've talked about with them at length.

Blessings,