On the Interpretation of Revelation

When the Stars Fall: A Messianic Commentary on the Revelatoin | 6/21/05 | Michael D. Bugg

[Buggman]

L'chaim b'Yeshua.

[Buggman]

See post 79.

[blue-duncan]

But the Seals, Trumpets and Vial/plagues are God's judgments not the "wrath of the Dragon". The 1 Peter references are to the trials the church was going through at that time as well as the 1 Thess. passage. There is nothing in the Revelation or Daniel passage that would compare with the intra family problems of the Matthew passage. It appears that these are references to the "I came to bring a sword" statements of Jesus rather than to an eschatological prophecy.

As far as the church in the U.S. is concerned, the Great Tribulation is cosmic, including the heavens and the earth. No particular church or country, (Babylon excepted) is singled out. The progressive judgments lead up to the "Day of the Lord" but they are still judgments of the wrath of God, maybe not THE WRATH OF GOD, and my reading of scripture is that the church will not experience the judgments of God for sin, only for works.

As an aside, with the torture that the church in China and the Muslim countries are experiencing now, why should they have to experience the Great Tribulation, simply because the church in America is soft? Laodicea says "turn or I will spit you out, not wait and see what I'm going to do to you."

[HarleyD]

But HOW does normal tribulation differ from the "GREAT" tribulation? Are these Christians going to go through something far worst than any Christians before them?

All the verses you quoted were to Christians in the first church and throughout the ages. To me tribulation is tribulation. We go through no more or less than what we can handle as God sees fit.

I don't know about any interpretation of any differing views but looking at Rev 12:12-13:

“For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.” And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.”

Couldn’t that be interpreted as 1) the devil coming down is nothing more than the devil entering Judas which, btw, is the ONLY time in scripture it states the devil entered someone; 2) the dragon seeing he was thrown down as the crucifixion and resurrection; and 3) persecution of the woman who gave birth to the male child as the church?

I can understand why Calvin never wrote a commentary on Revelation.

[blue-duncan]

Please, understand, my questions are only to toughen you up for the "Larry King Live" call in program, right after the book hits #1 on the New York Times non fiction list.

[Buggman]

ut the Seals, Trumpets and Vial/plagues are God's judgments not the "wrath of the Dragon".

Can you prove that the seals are God's judgments, or is that just a common assumption? I can prove that they are not:

The Fifth Seal: The Great Tribulation

And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, Holy and True, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
--Revelation 6:9-11

The appearance of these martyrs “under the altar” signifies that place where the blood of a sacrifice for sin was poured out, as was that of the trespass offering.[1] This indicates that these martyrs are of the same group as those who appear before the Father’s throne, those who “have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”[2] For that matter, so do the white robes that they are given after being told to wait. This period of time, this Great Tribulation in which they are martyred is detailed in the Olivet Discourse and Rev. 12-13.

The reader should note that the martyrs are asking when God will judge the earth and are told to wait just a little bit longer, which clearly indicates that neither this seal nor the four that precede it are to be confused with the judgments of God against the sins of the world. The Day of the Lord has clearly not begun yet, so the pretrib objection that since the Church is not appointed to suffer God’s wrath,[3] it must be Raptured before any of the “seal judgments” are unleashed is shown to rest on quicksand. In fact, let us bow to the definitions given to us by the Word of God and toss away the fallacious term “seal judgments” altogether. Like using the term “tribulation period” to refer to the whole of Daniel’s Seventieth Week, there is no Biblical justification for calling the seals judgments, and it only serves to muddy the waters and slant the discussion.

References:
[1] Lev. 4:18 and 5:19
[2] Rev. 7:14
[3] 1 Th. 5:9

[Some presuppose] that a person who becomes a Christian now need not do so “through fire and blood.” This peculiar conceit seems to be an American invention, as we have become so used to living under a Constitution that protects our right to worship our Lord. Praise God for that! But faith tried “through blood and fire” is precisely the fate faced by millions of Christians around the world, from Islamic Africa and the Middle-east, to Communist China. Even in Canada, a law was recently passed that forbids teaching the whole of the Bible, lest one offend a “protected group” like the homosexual lobby, and pastors have already faced legal sanction for doing so. Similar laws have also been enacted in many European countries. If even Canada, so often called the fifty-first state in jest, can find its way to outlaw the Bible, can we honestly say that it could never happen here? On the contrary, the Bible teaches us that we should expect persecution, “fire and blood.”

The confusion comes from not keeping separate and distinct in our minds, as the Bible does in its words, the Great Tribulation, the wrath of Satan against Israel and those “who keep God’s commands and bear witness to Yeshua,”[1] and the Day of the Lord, in which God will “to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it,”[2] and “Adonai alone shall be exalted.”[3] As Sha’ul states, we are appointed to tribulation, “For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.”[4] This is in utter contrast with the Day of the Lord, of which Sha’ul writes, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that Day should overtake you as a thief. . . For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Yeshua HaMashiach.”[5]

Why, it is asked, would Messiah allow His beloved bride to go through the Great Tribulation? In answer, let us remember that the purpose of Messiah giving Himself for us was not so that we could simply come as we are, forgiven but still creatures of our old sinful habits, into heaven without a struggle, but rather “that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”[6] Yet, without being tried, without ever having the opportunity to suffer for His name, how can we be purified? The Church in the West is filled to overflowing with lukewarm Christians precisely because having faith in Messiah comes so cheaply to us.

As always, Scripture contains the answer. As Kefa wrote, “Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Yeshua HaMashiach.”[7] The phrase “tried by fire” invokes the imagery of a kiln that heats and melts the gold so that all of its impurities float to the surface so that they can be skimmed off, leaving the gold pure. “Therefore, the primary reason for putting the elect of God through the great tribulation is so that the true church will be presented to Christ as His bride ‘in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle . . . that she should be holy and blameless’ (Eph. 5:27), ‘so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming’ (1 John 2:28).”[8]

Kefa went on to write, “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Messiah’s sufferings; that, when His glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.”[9] The first Christians were tested and tried by persecution and suffering, as indeed millions of Christians have had their faith tested even to the point of death throughout the last two thousand years. Even today millions of Christians around the world are tested and tried and put to death. If the Bible not only tells us that we are destined for persecution but also the reason why it must be, why should it surprise Western evangelicals? Even many pretrib commentators will state that though they believe in a pretribulation Rapture, they also expect pre-Rapture tribulation.

Yet, in facing that, let us not forget Messiah’s promise to us, that though “some of you they will have put to death . . . not a hair on your head shall be lost.”[10] We ultimately are destined not for the grave, but for a glorious Resurrection, which is the subject of the next seal.

References:
[1] Rev. 12:17
[2] Isa. 13:9
[3] Isa. 2:11, 17
[4] 1 Th. 3:3-4
[5] 1 Th. 5:4, 9
[6] Tit. 2:14
[7] 1 Pet. 1:6-7
[8] Van Kampen, p. 257
[9] 1 Pet. 4:12-13
[10] Lk. 21:16, 17

Congratulations! You've just gotten more of my book out of me. :-)

[Buggman]

But HOW does normal tribulation differ from the "GREAT" tribulation? Are these Christians going to go through something far worst than any Christians before them?

Define "worse." What happened during the later Roman persecutions and the Catholic Inquisitions was pretty horrific. It's hard to imagine something being "worse" to the individual. However, it will be worse in the sense that it will be worldwide, with no country to flee to for safety, save perhaps Jordan.

Couldn’t that be interpreted as 1) the devil coming down is nothing more than the devil entering Judas which, btw, is the ONLY time in scripture it states the devil entered someone; 2) the dragon seeing he was thrown down as the crucifixion and resurrection; and 3) persecution of the woman who gave birth to the male child as the church?

1) I think it will be something very much like what happened to Judas in that the Dragon will enter the person of a man.

2) Nope. There's no indication that the Dragon has yet been formally and finally evicted from Heaven, and the indications here are that he will only be thrown down to the earth during the last 3 1/2 years (cf. Rev. 12:6 and 14). For now, he continues in his role as "the accuser of our brothers . . . who accused them before our God day and night" (v. 10).

3) Nope, for the Church did not give birth to the Messiah. Israel did. Hence, the woman represents Israel, the Jewish people as a whole, who is persecuted during that time along with "the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (v. 17)--and it is that seed, those branches grafted in to Israel's root (Rom. 11) by adoption as God's children through His Son, who are the Church.

I can understand why Calvin never wrote a commentary on Revelation.

No comment. :-)

[blue-duncan]

I have to go to a meeting with the General Contractor and Architects for a large church project that is about to implode so I won't be able to do justice to your reply until later tonight.

[HarleyD]

"Please, understand, my questions are only to toughen you up for the "Larry King Live" call in program, right after the book hits #1 on the New York Times non fiction list."

Once again dittos Buggman. I wish you success on your book.

[Buggman]

No prob. I've got the slight advantage in that I've got several hundred pages of material that I can just copy, paste, and do a bit of formatting on. It's not meant to be a contest anyway. Good luck heading off the implosion.

And both of you, thank you for the toughening up.

[xzins]

Those darn amillennialists have their points and I respect them. The best that I ever remember one of them raising (Jean Chauvin?) was the issue of intensifying judgments in the Revelation ACTUALLY being recapitulations of the same period of time.

I had thought of that prior to that conversation, but it really did present a new framework for Revelation. It has it built around a specific period of time. (The church age..but it could be applied to other periods such as the tribulation period.) First, within that time there are "7" churches that span it. Then, further details of that same period are given in the 7 trumpets. More details with the 7 thunders, bowls, etc. All of them are more details within that period.

Why, for example, cannot we see a third of the grass being burned up as indicative of a worldwide problem over a period of time rather than a local one all in one fell swoop? If every third blade of grass dies around the whole world, that, too, is still a third. We don't have to have, for example, all of S. American grass die to achieve the fulfillment of that prophecy. A third is a third no matter how it's spread out.

[blue-duncan]

Then it would not be "apocalyptic" but natural erosion. It seems that each of these events (judgments when I talk to B)are supra natural so that there isn't any question of natural occurences.

[xzins]

It isn't natural IF God does it intentionally on purpose. It simply means that He has decided to direct this act of the play very closely.

[blue-duncan]

But His audience has to understand its purpose, or like me, I curse the grass that grows (having to mow) and I curse the grass that doesn't grow (those miserable brown spots).

[xzins]

Not to belabor the point, but if there are 99 types of grass and 33 varieties die off, isn't that also 1/3 of grass?

[The Grammarian]

Those darn amillennialists have their points and I respect them.

I agree with them more than I agree with premillenialists, anyway.

[Buggman]

In answer, I'd have to say:

And as it was in the days of Noah, so it also shall be in the days of the Son of man. They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and the flood came and destroyed them all. So also as it was in the days of Lot: they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but the day Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from the heaven and destroyed them all. Even so it shall be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
--Luke 17:26-30

For you yourselves know accurately that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety! Then sudden destruction comes on them, as travail upon a woman with child. And they shall not escape.
--1 Thess. 5:2-3

From these and other passages, I have to come to a few conclusions:

1) "Sudden destruction" means "sudden destruction." The idea that we're looking a long wasting period just doesn't fit.

2) Just like the Flood or the nuking of Sodom and Gomorrah, the Day of the Lord judgments will be done in such a way that no one can doubt that they are of Heaven.

3) The Day of the Lord will begin on the very day of the Second Coming/Rapture. There won't be years between as some pretribs have proposed (Chuck Missler among them).

[Polycarp1]

The book of Revelation was one of those books "on the bubble" as it were when decisions about the make up of the Canon were being made. It was included but not without some reservations. Because of its imagery, potential for wild speculation, and possible source for heretical opinion it has never been read in the Orthodox East in the cycle of liturgical readings.

When the Church gathered in council to put its understanding of the faith in the short form of a Creed it only affirmed that Christ would come again and judge the living and the dead. No other detail is provided or was considered necessary.

That being said two things are important. First that any and all of the "details" surrounding the end of history outside the basic affirmation that Christ will return are speculation and need to be explored with an enormous amount of humility and very much within the larger faith and human context of the Church. This is not a place for "lone rangers" and we have way too many loose cannons out there with elaborate and almost always spurious interpretations to sell.

Second the simple truth is this. We Christians would do a thousand times better to read and live the Gospels than engaging in end times speculations. Every second we spend with flow charts, scary books, wondering what the mark of the beast is and such is time spent away from feeding the poor, prayer, worship, caring for the broken, all the things for which we will actually be held accountable upon Christ's return. Could we imagine what the world would look like if all the energy used to try to determine that which even the Apostles were not able to know was directed to things that mattered?

[Buggman]

There's an irony to someone with your screename questioning the canonicity of the Revelation, you realize: Polycarp was the disciple of John and the teacher of Irenaeus, who affirmed the book's authenticity and commented at length on it in the mid-second century. He was certainly in a position to know, thanks to his relationship, so why are you questioning it?

This is not a place for "lone rangers" and we have way too many loose cannons out there with elaborate and almost always spurious interpretations to sell.

Since the larger part of the Church has chosen to ignore and not teach the Bible's final book, it has no right to complain about the "lone rangers" who have to do so on their own, as I've already stated in the original article.

We Christians would do a thousand times better to read and live the Gospels than engaging in end times speculations.

If it were an either/or issue, I would agree. But it isn't. First of all, I've already stated several reasons why all Christians should study the prophetic Scriptures with the same vigor that they do any other subject in the Bible.

Secondly, like Sha'ul, we are commanded to learn and teach the whole counsel of God, not just our favorite subjects. As I pointed out in the intro above, he taught at least the basics of eschatology--including the coming of the Antichrist--to the Thessalonicans during the three short weeks he was there, which means that he was teaching eschatology to newborn Christians.

Thirdly, the Gospel accounts show Yeshua teaching much about the End Times, both in His Kingdom parables, in the Olivet Discourse, and elsewhere. Ergo, if you try to teach the Gospel without also teaching eschatology, you're not really teaching the whole Gospel.

[P-Marlowe]

We Christians would do a thousand times better to read and live the Gospels than engaging in end times speculations.

If you consider the book to be of divine origin (As I do) then you need to consider the fact that of all the new testament books, the only one that promises a blessing to those who read and keep the words in it is the Book of Revelation.

Now maybe none of us will understand it until it is all over, but nevertheless, we are admonished to read the words and to keep the words of the Book of Revelation.

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

So I think it is at least as important to read as the gospels. We may not understand a single word, but nevertheless, we will be blessed if we read it. We have that promise upon the authority of the Word of God.