A Church That Packs Them In, 16,000 at a Time

NY Times ^ | July 18, 2005 | JOHN LELAND

[gamarob1]

You said the only thing that matters: GOD JUDGES. Not man. GOD. I'll leave the judgment to Him, and I can assure you, He's FAR FAR FAR more gracious, infinitely and eternally MORE GRACIOUS, than ANY man can or will be with you.

God is a God of grace, and on that I stand forever.

[DocRock]

"A Church That Packs Them In, 16,000 at a Time"

As I refuse to sign up for the "slimes", was any number given for those that accepted Christ as their Savior and/or were baptized?

[wallcrawlr]

Please quote me where I said "the only thing".
I got the impression you think I or man is going to judge you. Please tell me where I inferred man is going to judge you.

Commentary (not directly aimed at you, I'm just using your post to spout off):
Too many Christians have the faith of a child and they are led by shepherds that treat them like sheep. Its time Christians examine the scriptures and mature in their faith to a point where they can discern these things.

[jkl1122]

Too many Christians have the faith of a child and they are led by shepherds that treat them like sheep. Its time Christians examine the scriptures and mature in their faith to a point where they can discern these things.

Amen.

[wallcrawlr]

That # is deceptive too...is it really something you can rely on as being accurate? Well, I guess its possible to take that # and determine maybe 5-10% of them are actually saved Christians that will live a life that proves it.

[Always Right]

Joel tends to be overly inclusive and never wants to offend anyone. Joel is sincere and does good work getting the message out. People tend to be critical of TV Evangelist, but they do reach out to a lot of people who would otherwise not get any message. Joel ain't perfect, but I give him a lot of credit for what his has accomplished.

[mercy]

I watched them on TBN last night for a few minutes. Mr. Olstein has a good spirit about him. I believe I discerned the Holy Spirit working in him.

Then his wife got on stage and started leading worship. I felt the spirit of performance. Like watching a cleaned up Mariah Carrey.

I switched channels which is what usually happens when I cruise by TBN.

[jkl1122]

If Joel is "overly inclusive", then he isn't preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Word of God makes it clear that only those who follow the straight and narrow path will live eternally in Heaven.

[asformeandformyhouse]

Too many Christians have the faith of a child and they are led by shepherds that treat them like sheep. Its time Christians examine the scriptures and mature in their faith to a point where they can discern these things.

Acts 17:11  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Otherwise:

Galatians 1:6  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

[asformeandformyhouse]

Then his wife got on stage and started leading worship

That's a clue.

1 Timothy 2:12  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

[wallcrawlr]

I hear what youre saying. JO does seem like a decent fellow, genuinely convinced that he's helping people find Jesus.
He's on TV, he's selling books, those activities will bring additional criticism...the pastor down the street could be saying the same things JO says, yet I'll never know because he doesnt promote himself like JO.


The question that Christians like me come up with is:
Is it a an actual saving relationship that he leads them too.
Christians will learn that the narrow road is more narrow than they realize.

I'm convinced that there are some Christians that believe they are saved, yet will not go to heaven. I pray for my Christians brothers/sisters that they come to fear God and from that realize why/how they are saved.

We are not called to golf/fish our way into the presence of King Jesus.

[gamarob1]

I was going along with what you were saying, until you posted this:

determine maybe 5-10% of them are actually saved Christians that will live a life that proves it.

Now I know you're just another performance "christian" that judges others for not living up to some false standard

You see how easy it is to bring into question someone's salvation?

[wallcrawlr]

Thats ok. I am cutting you some slack. This is not a false standard.

Luke 9:23 Then He (Jesus) said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

How many of those people "saved" are going to deny themselves, take up their cross and follow him.


You tell me?

[Cecily]

Count me unimpressed too. There are persecuted brothers and sisters in Christ all around the world who suffer daily on account of the Gospel, and I don't think they would be too impressed with namby-pamby, wouldn't-know-the-true-Gospel-if-he-tripped-over-it types like "seeker sensitive" and "positive message" Osteen.

[wallcrawlr]

good perspective to remember.

[DarthVader]

Romans 2: Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. 2You say, ‘We know that God’s judgment on those who do such things is in accordance with truth.’a 3Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: 7to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11For God shows no partiality. 12All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

[gamarob1]

I will be happy to tell you, if you first tell me what it means in EVERY PERSON'S LIFE to take up their cross and follow Jesus. Since you are working to determine who isn't "really saved", then you HAVE TO tell them where they're lacking. Not just throw up some scriptures, but c'mon man, APPLY THEM. To every person that you're declaring unsaved, you have to do that. Otherwise you're no help.

How do you know who is or isn't taking upon them that which Jesus Himself has purposed for them? You're in dangerous territory, for yourself, not others

I have to go now, but I'll be back later tonight with more

[DocRock]

"That # is deceptive too..."

Sure it is, but I'm just curious whether the focus is on attendance or Mark 16:15. "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

[gamarob1]

And by the way, here's what I'LL tell to the unsaved: 1 Corinthians 15:2-4. THAT'S what they need. Not your clouding of the simple Gospel message

[Cecily]

Osteen can't even manage to explain the Gospel to Larry King. I doubt that he personally is very successful at equipping the saints at his church, but others might be.