A Church That Packs Them In, 16,000 at a Time

NY Times ^ | July 18, 2005 | JOHN LELAND

[DocRock]

"What does that matter today?

See my Post 38. Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

[mercy]

Oh.

[wallcrawlr]

after some further critique of myself...I want to simply leave you/this conversation by saying,

In no way do I mean to come across as knowing what Gods judgment will be, in no way to I mean to come across as fully understanding everyone's heart and how they will be judged.

I simply pray for my Christian brothers/sisters that they open their hearts and minds to learn that old fashioned fear of the Lord. It is my belief that without that "fear" - a respectful, loving fear - Christians may cheapen the Grace that Jesus took so much pain for.

[mercy]

ALL Y'ALL 'WORKS' CHRISTIANS,

Stop beating The Lord's sheep!!!

The thief on the cross next to Jesus had one 'work' to his name. He spoke faith in Jesus in his last day on earth. Christ assured him he would go to heaven with Him.

You all spread the anti-gospel that you have to live some exemplary special existence in order to be worthy. Not every one is called to be an Apostle. Not all are even called to be pastors, sunday school teachers or worship leaders. Not all are called to be missionaries.

Problem is people like you think they ARE called when they aren't and go around excluding people from the Kingdom of Christ.

"Don't even try unless you are willing to live a perfect life. Like me."

Folks look at you and run the other way.

YOU ARE THOSE WHO CHRIST WILL NOT KNOW WHEN HE SEES YOU!!!

FAITH is the work Christ requires. Truly faithe (a made up verb) and Jesus might have some work for you to do. You might also get left in the desert for thirty years or so to mature ... like Moses did after TRYING in his own strength to do the work of The Lord.

Lead your own wife or brother or child to Christ by your faith. THAT just might be your life's work.

[GrandEagle]

Very interesting conversation tody. I'm sorry I missed it.
For every truth God has given us, Satan has at least one lie to counter that truth. Even in my own denomination many have fallen into what I call the "name it and claim it" "gospel". They have things turned completely around where God somehow works for us not the other way around. Even our prayer life refelects this belief if we are not careful. We deliver a punch list of demands that we expect God to deliver. We have forgoten scripture like:

John 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
John 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

Essentially Jesus is saying that you will be happy if you remember that I am God and you are not.

Many churches thrive on this because it "feels" good.

Another great lie is that we suffer from a lack of self esteem. Somehow things would be better if we just loved ourselves more.
God says in his word:
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
We are commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves. That we love ourselves is never in question.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

And finally just to put things in prespective for us God said:
Luke 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
Luke 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Luke 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

In other words... when you have doen everything that I have told you to do - big deal, you just did what you were told.

I fear that many who profess Salvation do not posess Salvation, primarily because of this feel good, self esteem building, name it and claim it, God works for me gospel.

Finally, 2 Tim 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 Tim 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient...

The very first thing, and quite possably the cause of the perilous times: men are lovers of their own selves....Taught to us by "the church".

IMHO.....
Cordually,
GE

[pby]

Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Robert Schuller, etc....

[pby]

Wallcrawlr didn't cloud the simple Gospel...Osteen did.

The "wide-gate feel-good gospel" that Osteen preaches is no Gospel at all...just a deception.

Wallcrawlr correctly pointed out that being a true disciple of Christ is costly and difficult, which is opposite of the "felt needs" "health and wealth; easy life" "preaching" that Osteen feeds his audience on a regular basis.

In John 6:60-70, Jesus points out that the Gospel includes difficulties and offenses and when many disciples turn away because of these, Jesus asks the twelve if they want to turn away also.

[pby]

Yes...The Spirit has departed indeed!

[pby]

Amen.

[nonsumdignus]

Ahh, Protestantism at its finest.

[Dataman]

Excellent! Those who fear judgment often forget that which is inconvenient. It is the nature of sinful man to ignore that which is uncomfortable. Witness the materialists on the crevo threads.

[Dataman]

Do me a huge favor and tell me how it is I'm "clouding" the Gospel.

You aren't. The existence of grace does not preclude the possibility of judgment. It is our nature to self-justify which is what the twisting of grace is all about. Grace is not a license to subsidize the flesh nor is it a free pass to resist sanctification. It is the negation of the sentence deserved; it is unmerited favor.

[gamarob1]

This is too much, geez, I thank MY GOD that He took me to competent ministers of Him, and not to you people, when I first came to believe. That was for everyone in general.

Now about this:

In no way do I mean to come across as knowing what Gods judgment will be, in no way to I mean to come across as fully understanding everyone's heart and how they will be judged

Thank you. It is outrageous to even think that you know what is going on in the heart of another. Unless God tells you, but that's pretty rare, IMO

Christians may cheapen the Grace that Jesus took so much pain for.

The notion of "cheap grace" is an oxymoron, because, GRACE IS FREE. There is no price on grace, it is received as a free gift, completely free, otherwise, it is not grace at all.

[gamarob1]

The thief on the cross next to Jesus had one 'work' to his name. He spoke faith in Jesus in his last day on earth. Christ assured him he would go to heaven with Him

Excellent point. No one here wants to remember that because it would take away their "gospel" of bloody knuckles....

[A2J]

The notion of "cheap grace" is an oxymoron, because, GRACE IS FREE. There is no price on grace, it is received as a free gift, completely free, otherwise, it is not grace at all.

I agree that grace is free but that doesn't mean that we who have received it cannot cheapen it to the point where we misrepresent God and His gift to others.

When we stray from God's understanding and intent for grace, we cheapen it to the point that it becomes worthless and easily taken for granted.

[rwfromkansas]

Rule number two: in the last days, there will be a remnant faithful...the rest following false Christianity

[gamarob1]

I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Being saved, I understand that. Being in Christ, no problem. Either point you're making, I haven't the foggiest.

[Conservative til I die]

It's the Prosperity Gospel. A little self-help mixed with a little Christianity-lite. Basically, come to our Church (and buy my book, and CD, and a lot of other crap) and you too can pay off that mortgage and car loan because God is kinda like the big Ditech in the sky.

It gets tiresome hearing these boasts about "The biggest congregation in the WORLD!!!" as if that means anything, and as if God intended for His Church to look like a Tony Robbins convention.

[Conservative til I die]

The heart of Jesus is to forgive and restore.

2 Cor 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.

2 Cor 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

2 Cor 11:15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

[Conservative til I die]

I think it's good that he apologized. But really, you gotta question a christian preacher who won't publically state that there is one and only one way to God.

Can't turn off any potential customers...