Posted on 07/19/2005 7:07:09 AM PDT by topcat54
Amen!! Whether it is "soon" or not is entirely up to Him.
Mark 8:32 He spoke this word openly. And Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. 33 But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, "Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men." 34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."
Don't you think it applies to all humanity in all ages?
1 Pe 2:7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, F10 "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," F11 8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." F12 They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. 9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. 11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, 12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.
I think that the word "generation" has a timeless application in the above verse. I sure hope so. Othewise, salvation belonged just to the 1st century church.
I think you have rightly discerned that the context helps us to define how the term is used. The context of 1 Peter 2 indicates that Peter is speaking of the entire church as a "holy nation", etc. If Peter had simply said something like, "you are this generation" and then stopped, we might have cause to interpret it as merely referring to a time-limited group of people. But he does not. We have lots of immediate context as well as the rest of Scripture, to support the interpretation that he is reffering to the church in general.
The context of the Peter verse indicates a broad application of the term "generation."
The Mark 8 verse also indicates the possibility of a broader application for the expression, "this generation."
While the idea that all humanity is caught in the grips of sin is certainly true, and it can be discerned in many other passages of Scripture, I do not believe that is the primary meaning of this passage.
If you back up just one verse, you'll understand the context.
"And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again." (v. 31)
Note the focus on the "the elders and chief priests and scribes" in this particular teaching. That helps us to determine the meaning of "adulterous and sinful generation", which targets 1st century Israel.
These are good questions.
Indeed. We have been in the last days since Jesus' death and resurrection.
God isn't in a hurry.
I'm simply discussing the breadth of usage for "generation" and "this generation" in the bible.
Psalms 71:14-24 14 But I will hope continually, And will praise You yet more and more. 15 My mouth shall tell of Your righteousness And Your salvation all the day, For I do not know their limits. 16 I will go in the strength of the Lord God; I will make mention of Your righteousness, of Yours only. 17 O God, You have taught me from my youth; And to this day I declare Your wondrous works. 18 Now also when I am old and grayheaded, O God, do not forsake me, Until I declare Your strength to this generation, Your power to everyone who is to come.
you saying all of revelation came to pass already?
I agree some has been fulfilled, but not all of it.
Jesus still has not come back, the AntiChrist has not arrived. The final judgment has still not occurred.
As for the tribulation, it is described as pretty darn tough to just be talking about the destruction of Jerusalem.
Luke 11:29-36 29 And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, "This is an evil generation. It seeks a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. F89 30 For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation. 31 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. 32 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
I don't think it would be inappropriate for me to preach a sermon applying this to today's world. I think Jesus' 3 days in the tomb are a sign to us the same as it was a sign to those unbelievers living exactly at that time.
I must teach the relevance of the death, burial, and resurrection to this age. I think bypassing that would be negligence.
There is no such thing as "the AntiChrist". There are multiple antichrists mentioned in Scripture, but not one specific entity. Any person or group who is against Jesus Christ is an antichrist.
I have been reading your discussion with interest. I'm just marking a place and hoping you will ping me to your posts.
Colin.
I hope you are right, but I don't think so. I think you are reading Biblical passages with a prior mindset and desire, rather than reading them to be taught.
You're not going to listen, so I'll stop talking.
May God be with you.
I don't see it so much as a parallelism as a completion of the thought, i.e., "to this generation and generations yet to come."
But I agree with the idea that there are different meanings of "generation" in the Bible. The context and analogy of faith are key to correct understanding.
The primary if not exclusive use of "this generation" and its variants in the gospels is referring to first century Israel.
Wait a minute. There's a whole group of Christians running around today who do not believe they will experience a future "great tribuation" because of the secret rapture theory ala the Left behind novels. They believe they will miss all the "pain and horror".
I hope you are right, but I don't think so. I think you are reading Biblical passages with a prior mindset and desire, rather than reading them to be taught.
We are comparing Scripture with Scripture. You are free to offer alternatives from the Bible that are consistent with all the evidence.
But I think you will agree with me that the experience was very different for that generation than any other generation. After all, that generation actually witnessed the death, burial, and resurrection with their own physical eyes. They were the generation who cried out, "His blood be on us and on our children."
Application is different from interpretation. You are talking about application. All Scripture may be applicable to our situation, but that does not mean the interpretation is primarily about us.
In the case of the phrase "this generation" the focus, the correct interpretation, was first century Israel.
No. See message #100.
As for the tribulation, it is described as pretty darn tough to just be talking about the destruction of Jerusalem.
Not for the people who were there.
[Story of a woman who kills and eats her own child.] Among the residents of the region beyond Jordan was a woman called Mary, daughter of Eleazar, of the village of Bethezuba (the name means "House of Hyssop"). She was well off, and of good family, and had fled to Jerusalem with her relatives, where she became involved with the siege. Most of the property she had packed up and brought with her from Peraea had been plundered by the tyrants [Simon and John, leaders of the Jewish war-effort], and the rest of her treasure, together with such foods as she had been able to procure, was being carried by their henchmen in their daily raids. In her bitter resentment the poor woman cursed and abused these extortioners, and this incensed them against her. However, no one put her to death either from exasperation or pity. She grew weary of trying to find food for her kinsfolk. In any case, it was by now impossible to get any, wherever you tried. Famine gnawed at her vitals, and the fire of rage was ever fiercer than famine. So, driven by fury and want, she committed a crime against nature. Seizing her child, an infant at the breast, she cried, "My poor baby, why should I keep you alive in this world of war and famine? Even if we live till the Romans come, they will make slaves of us; and anyway, hunger will get us before slavery does; and the rebels are crueler than both. Come, be food for me, and an avenging fury to the rebels, and a tale of cold horror to the world to complete the monstrous agony of the Jews." With these words she killed her son, roasted the body, swallowed half of it, and stored the rest in a safe place. But the rebels were on her at once, smelling roasted meat, and threatening to kill her instantly if she did not produce it. She assured them she had saved them a share, and revealed the remains of her child. Seized with horror and stupefaction, they stood paralyzed at the sight. But she said, "This is my own child, and my own handiwork. Eat, for I have eaten already. Do not show yourselves weaker than a woman, or more pitiful than a mother. But if you have pious scruples, and shrink away from human sacrifice, then what I have eaten can count as your share, and I will eat what is left as well." At that they slunk away, trembling, not daring to eat, although they were reluctant to yield even this food to the mother. The whole city soon rang with the abomination. When people heard of it, they shuddered, as though they had done it themselves....
[Account of the death and destruction in Jerusalem.] For notwithstanding these men were mad with all sorts of impiety, yet did they still admit those that desired to offer their sacrifices, although they took care to search the people of their own country beforehand, and both suspected and watched them; while they were not so much afraid of strangers, who, although they had gotten leave of them, how cruel soever they were, to come into that court, were yet often destroyed by this sedition; for those darts that were thrown by the engines came with that force, that they went over all the buildings, and reached as far as the altar, and the temple itself, and fell upon the priests, and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth, to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and Barbarians, with their own blood; till the dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves.
From "Bellum Judaicum" by Flavius Josephus.
There's quite a bit of breadth, even in this one word used in the Olivet Discourse:
This passage has often been used by preterists and historicists to prove that the Olivet Discourse must have been referring to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., no matter how much of a stretch it may seem. In an error similar to those who placed the Rapture in 1988 by counting forty years forward from Israel’s rebirth in 1948, they count one forty-year generation from the time Messiah gave the Olivet Discourse to the destruction of Jerusalem. DeMar argues this case: “Every time ‘this generation’ is used in the New Testament, it means, without exception, the generation to whom Jesus was speaking.”[1] Thus, he argues, if Yeshua said that “this generation” would not pass away until His Coming, then He must have come in some way (i.e. in judgment against Jerusalem) by 70 A.D.You know, it always amuses me how the preterist will insist on woodenly literal, singular interpretations of vague statements like "soon" and "quickly" and "this generation," all of which can mean something other than the one meaning that preterism assigns to them, but then feels free to allegorize away every last one of God's other promises in order to hold on to his tradition.However, there are at least five possible interpretations of the Greek word for “generations”:
1)“This generation” refers to the generation then receiving Messiah's words, meaning that all would have to be fulfilled during their lifetimes, as preterism understands it.Due to the reference to the fig tree, I prefer the interpretation that here “generation” refers to the genealogy of the Jewish race, though it may also refer to one or more of the other definitions as well. DeMar insists, “This is impossible since the Greek word for ‘race’ [genos] is not used.”[6] Yet Vine states that genea “primarily signifies a begetting, or birth; then that which has been begotten, a family; or successive members of a genealogy.”[7] Mounce agrees that this is a possible interpretation, though he leans towards simply recognizing the fall of Jerusalem as one of multiple fulfillments of this prophecy,8 similar to how this work views the Abomination of Desolation being fulfilled by Antiochus and yet being future to us as well. It would seem that since conservative Biblical scholars agree that there are several possible interpretations of this one verse, it falls to those that hold that the only possible interpretation is that this passage was fulfilled in 70 A.D. must find more than this one verse on which to hang their position.2)“This generation” means “this race and/or nation,” and refers to the Jews. In other words, the Jews would certainly not pass away until all is fulfilled. This premise is supported both by history and the statements of God through His prophets: ““If those ordinances depart from before Me,” saith ADONAI, “Then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever. . . If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done,” saith ADONAI,”[2] “and so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written . . . for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”[3] It is also supported by Messiah’s use of the parable of the fig tree, which is a consistant symbol for Israel in Scripture (cf. Lk. 13:6-9).
3)In like vein, some hold that the generation being referred to here is the generation that saw the rebirth of Israel as a nation in 1948, or else the recapture of Jerusalem in 1967. The lines of evidence for this view are similar to those of view #2. Though this view may yet be seen to have something to it, it has spawned an unfortunate number of dating schemes attempting to predict the time of the return of Messiah, all of which have been proven false by history.
4)On a completely different track, “this generation” may refer to the generation that sees “all these things, [so that you will] know that it is near, even at the doors.” This view runs into some trouble when used in Lk. 21, which is a completely separate speech which does speak of the destruction (or desolation) of Jerusalem and then dovetails with the Olivet Discourse when it comes to the Second Coming. Furthermore, since nearly all of the events of the Olivet Discourse would seem to take place within Daniel’s Seventieth Week, such an interpretation makes this phrase seem almost redundant and unnecessary.
5)Finally, it has been observed by many that every other time Yeshua spoke of “this generation,” He was condemning “this evil and adulterous generation.”[4] In this view, the kind of evil and adulterous people who saw Messiah’s miracles and heard His teaching directly and yet didn’t believe in Him will not pass away until after His Coming. In other words, it refers to an age of the world, like aion. This interpretation is supported by Vine.[5]
References:
[1] DeMar, Gary, End Times Fiction: A Biblical Consideration of the Left Behind Theology (Thomas Nelson, 2001), p. 68
[2] Jer. 31:36-37
[3] Rom. 11:26, 29
[4] e.g. Mt. 16:4, 17:17, etc
[5] Vine, W.E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Thomas Nelxon, 1997), p. 34
[6] DeMar, p. 70
[7] Vine, ibid.
[8] Mounce, Robert H., Matthew (New International Biblical Commentary Series, Vol. I) (Hendrickson, 1991), pp. 227-228
It's not a closed case for me, but then again, I believe in openness to all schools of eschatology until the times themselves prove which one is the correct one.
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