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To: jude24
...and gave his Son as the propitiation for all men, including the non-elect.

The verse you are quoting says that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Meaning, that forgiveness of sin is only found in Him, and all who would have their sins forgiven must come to Him. That, once again, does not address ability of the sinner to come, it merely states that Jesus is who he must obtain forgiveness from, because there is no other. The sinner's ability to avail himself of this forgiveness is a whole other matter.

Christ is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the whole world

Please show me the verse that states this. Your statement is at odds with your professed Calvinism. By this statement, you make the atonement general and non-specific, where as you ought to know that the Bible teaches that the atonement is particular and specific. It is a Penal Substitutionary atonement, wherein Jesus bore the ACTUAL punishment for SPECFIC sins, and sinners.

What is clear is that God loves even the reprobate, and that Jesus Christ died also for the non-elect.

This statement is in direct contradiction to your professed Calvinism.

325 posted on 08/02/2005 8:25:04 PM PDT by nobdysfool (Faith in Christ is the evidence of God's choosing, not the cause of it.)
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To: nobdysfool; Frumanchu; RnMomof7; P-Marlowe; xzins
Jude 24: Christ is the atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the whole world

NF: Please show me the verse that states this.

1 Jo. 2:2. In black and white.

This statement is in direct contradiction to your professed Calvinism.

It need not be. The maxim "offered to all, applied to the elect through the Holy Spirit" is Calvinist through and through,, see Strong's Systematic Theology, p. 771 ("The Scriptures represent the atonement as having been made for all men, and as sufficient for the salvation of all. Not the atonement therefore is limited, but the application of the atonement through the work of the Holy Spirit."); see also Hodge's Systematic Theology,, Vol. 2, p. 545 ("In view of the effects which the death of Christ produces on the relation of all mankind to God, it has in all ages been customary with Augustinians to say that Christ died "suffcienter proomnibus, efficaciter tantum pro electis" sufficiently for all, efficaciously only for the elect. There is a sense, therefore, in which He died for all, and there is a sense in which He died for the elect alone.")

Not that I care if you consider me a Calvinist. I have my theological positions, derived from several years of intense study. They happen to be Reformed in character. But, at the end of the day, my loyalty is not to Calvinism, or Presbyterianism, or any other -ism. I am a Christian. That is what matters, not this "I am of Calvin" baloney that goes on on this board.

333 posted on 08/02/2005 8:52:48 PM PDT by jude24 ("Stupid" isn't illegal - but it should be.)
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