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To: HarleyD

***Thus Cornelius believed God and his faith was reckoned as righteousness although he still had several steps to go through in the full salvation process.***

This is a new concept to me. Does Reformed theology allow for regeneration before one has heard the Gospel? (An interesting, off-topic note: one of my teachers pointed out to me that the angels are not allowed to preach the Gospel in this era - that privelege has been given to man alone.)




***Salvation is a multiple step process culminating in regeneration***

If you don't mind me asking, in the Reformed tradition what are these steps seen to be?




***for he could obtain nothing by prayer unless faith went before****

So Calvin says Cornelius must have had "faith" due to the fact that his prayers were answered (and only prayers on faith are answered).



***Furthermore, the fear of God and godliness do plainly prove that he was regenerate by the Spirit.***

I'm sorry, Calvin lost me here. I can see putting Cornelius in the camp of the OT saints (Heb 11 etc.) but to call him regenerated by the Spirit before he even heard the Gospel or received the Spirit is straining the definition of "regenerate". This would mean that the OT saints, in their day, were born-again also. But is this not against the teaching of Scripture which promises the new birth only to those under the new covenant?

Wouldn't it seem that Cornelius was still in a darkened condition as evidenced by his prostraiting himself... "When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him."?




***although Augustine thinketh as we do in the thing itself, who affirmeth plainly, that Cornelius could not pray unless he had faith,...***

I guess this really gets to the heart of Reformed theology doesn't it? The question becomes, can one have "faith" before one is regenerated or born again? Calvin says no - Cornelius MUST have been regenerated BECAUSE he evidenced faith. This, he believes, would account for Cornelius' good deeds.

But that seems to conflict with the Biblical principle:

"The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved...

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

...

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."


Wouldn't it seem, given the facts of Cornelius' story that that's what he was missing - hearing the gospel preached. "While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word."







(PS - Talk about a mind blowing verse - look at this... "So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.")


966 posted on 08/09/2005 9:41:59 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

You're talking to a person who is unqualified to provide you with the "official" Reformed position. I can only tell you my understanding.

There are some who believe salvation is an instantaneous thing. I, OTOH, believe that a person salvation can happen in a moment or it could happen over many years. To give you a case in point besides Cornelius, there is the example of Abraham. We know that God told Abraham in Gen 12 to go and leave his folks which he did. But it wasn’t until Gen 17 when Abraham was justified by faith and Gen 22 when he was justified by his works. Years had gone by yet God prosper Abraham from Gen 12 on until Abraham was justified by faith and works.

I see Cornelius as no different although it took 4-5 days for his salvation to be complete. God, as He did with Abraham, watches over those who He elects. Calvin simply points out that Cornelius already had an understanding of God and was devout. But it was God who came to Cornelius.

The Order of Salvation is as follows:

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.


968 posted on 08/10/2005 6:02:44 AM PDT by HarleyD
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