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I have a few thoughts on this, but would be very interested in hearing a Protestant perspective on the article. gscc, I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts. Is there anyone you would like to invite for a discussion?

I dunno. If the last couple of paragraphs had been cut off by the copier, I wouldn't have much to take issue with.

There are doctrines (such as the virgin birth) which are derived from the explicit statement of one or two verses of Scripture, while there are doctrines (such as the perpetual virginity of Mary) which are implicit from Scripture more generally.

The term pistis is used in the Bible in a number of different senses, ranging from intellectual belief (Romans 14:22, 23, James 2:19), to assurance (Acts 17:31), and even to trustworthiness or reliability (Romans 3:3, Titus 2:10). Of key importance is Galatians 5:6, which refers to "faith working by charity." In Catholic theology, this is what is known as fides formata or "faith formed by charity." The alternative to formed faith is fides informis or "faith unformed by charity." This is the kind of faith described in James 2:19, for example.

This paragraph caught my eye. I was not aware of the terms fides formata and fides informis before.

The important point the author makes is that the word pistis can have different meanings. A stubborn insistence that it must always be interpreted the same way can lead to misunderstandings.

Like all Catholic documents of the period, it uses the term "faith" in the sense of intellectual belief in whatever God says. Thus the position being condemned is the idea that we are justified by intellectual assent alone (as per James 2). We might rephrase the canon:

The thesis seems to hinge on the historical accuracy of this comment. I find it difficult to believe that RC documents of the period would limit "faith" to intellectual assent. Indeed, if you read the documents of Trent you will find that "faith" hardly ever means mere intellectual assent.

No, the problem of Trent is that justification is based upon faith plus works, not faith alone. Trent speaks of the "increase of Justification". The Reformation speaks of justification by the imputed righteousness of Christ through the instrument of faith alone. No "increase of justification" is possible with such an understanding. Trent wanted no part of that idea, and thus condemned the protestants.

Modern Catholics and Protestants Together are just poor historians, not to mention poor theologians.

One more point. Neither Luther nor Calvin could be described as antinomian, but yet is was their teachings that were the object of Trent's wrath. If they were fundamentally correct, as this writer seems to assert, why the big deal?

Justification by Faith Alone: Catholics and Protestants Together?

Not unless the Catholic church renounces Trent........and I'm not holding my breath.

I had a discussion with PetroniusMaximus about this not long ago. See in particular this post of mine, Roman Catholicism: 'Hail Mary' Is More Than a Football Play #19, from which I quote:

Well, the faith is the key. The Catholic teaching is that works without faith is vanity; at the same time, faith without works is dead:
James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?
25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.
It is possible to create a kind of code language in which you declare that first, there is salvation, and then there are fruits of the salvation, and the fruits of the salvation are good works. We certainly can agree that, speculatively speaking, God, Who is outside of time, knows His elect and so His grace enables all good works, and frustrates the bad works that do not come from the operation of the free will. But this is an innatural reading of the entire Gospel, because the Gospel is written not from the eternal view of God but from the practical view of man. In that view, works are not predicated on the elect status, which is unknowable, but on the operation of the free will toward sainthood.
Man can reject the grace or he can cooperate with it. When he does, there is the fruit, and Christ promised to view it favorably. When he does not, there is sin, and then the judgement of Christ will weigh the sin against the faith. Despite the natural interest, even in the Gospel, to describe the dramatic and the unusual, there are clear passages that point to the gradual character of Christian faith: St. Peter walks on water the distance proportionate to his faith, the Apostles attempt and fail to heal the sick; St. Thomas and, repeatedly, St.Peter have lapses of faith; St. Paul dwells on the imperfections of his faith.
I put together a collection of verses, primarily from the Epistles, that point to this gradual buildup of faith, possible through grace, which is accomplished through works. But before I make the quotes, let me mention that th eissue is a bit like discovering a name of a continent on a map, which is spaced across the names of many geographical features and is diffucult to find only because the mental focus is on smaller print. If one is to summarize the pragmatic content of the Gospel in one word, that would be Christ's moral teaching, which is all about what to do and what not to do -- about works
***

Eph 2
8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
9 Not of works, that no man may glory.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Eph 4
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the word of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ:
I Cor 4
11 Even unto this hour we both hunger and thirst and are naked and are buffeted and have no fixed abode.
12 And we labour, working with our own hands. We are reviled: and we bless. We are persecuted: and we suffer it.
13 We are blasphemed: and we entreat. We are made as the refuse of this world, the offscouring of all, even until now.
I Cor 15
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast and unmoveable: always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord
II Cor 4
9 We suffer persecution: but are not forsaken. We are cast down: but we perish not.
10 Always bearing about in our body the mortification of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be made manifest in our bodies.

And then, of course, direct and clear references to the necessity of good works:

Mt. 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.
Phil 2
12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.
*** With fear and trembling work out your salvation.
St. Francis had a friend, who was overcome with worry. His worry was, -- Am I saved? St. Francis, upon learning of his friend's anguish, said: -- You are saved. Now, go do something about it.
Amen

I should perhaps have noted that I posted this article because on another thread (Lutheran leader calls for an ecumenical council to address growing biblical fundamentalism) it seemed that after the normal back and forth, charges and counter-charges in this debate between Catholics and Protestants, that a possible consensus was arising. In summary there was this exchange:

gscc:

If you understand the nature of true faith from which we are saved then you understand that the transformation of your life will produce fruits or good works. A life void of the signs of the salvation experience is probably void of a true commitment to pick up your cross and follow Christ. As we experience salvation through Christ's work on the cross we will bear fruit, however there is no amount of works that will earn any degree of salvation.

Mr. Lucky:

It may be we're talking past one another by our church's different traditional concepts of "faith". Be that as it may, my entry to this discussion was to answer to the obviously false charge that the doctrine of "sola gratia" was unscriptural. Whether you subscribe to "sola gratia" or not, it is clearly a belief based upon scripture. Understand that (most) orthodox Protestants draw a distinction between a sort of merely professed faith and a saving faith.

Petrosius:

But if you need "a true commitment to pick up your cross and follow Christ," are you too not adding something to "faith alone?" If you say that faith includes this commitment then you are using faith in a manner other than the original Reformers. It would also be different than the way Catholics use the term "faith" when we are speaking of faith and works where faith is understood as an intellectual assent to God. Is it possible that we are saying the same thing with different meanings to the words?
I have repeatedly stated that Catholics do not believe that we earn our salvation by our works. Salvation is a complete gift. Rather the value of works, i.e. a life lived in righteousness, is that it completes the process of sanctification. This is a process that occurs after the act of faith. But a return to a life of sin after faith renders that faith useless.

Mr. Lucky:

The orthodox Lutheran position on Justification was stated 460 years ago in Article IV of the Augsburg Confession:
Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strengths, merits or works, but are freely justified for Christ's sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake, who by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight.
As a Lutheran, I believe nothing more about justification and nothing less.

Petrosius:

Does not this reduce faith to solely an intellectual assent to the saving action of Jesus Christ without the our commitment to live righteously? This is how Catholics understand the Protestant idea of salvation "by faith alone." This is also what I have often heard preached, quite explicitly, by some Evangelicals on the radio.

gscc:

Reducing the doctrine of 'Salvation by faith alone' to "solely an intellectual assent to the saving action of Jesus Christ without a commitment to live righteously", is equivalent to reducing your view to equalizing it with the sale of indulgences. You have to be able to come up with something better than that.

Petrosius:

This is not a charge but an attempt to understand. As I stated, I have heard this understanding preached quite explicitly by Evangelicals on the radio. This is also the Catholic understanding (misunderstanding ?) of its meaning as contained in the Augsburg Confession. If this is wrong (and here I am only speaking of the formulation of the Augsburg Confession) please show where faith, as formulated in the confession, goes beyond the belief "that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake."
Is it possible that some Protestants hold this view and others do not?

I know that there are many other areas in which we disagree but is it possible that the debate between "faith alone" and "faith and works" is based on the different usages of the term "faith"?

I know how debates on FreeRepublic can wander all over the place so I would ask everyone that on this thread we could keep to the question above.

Part I -- second part coming next week.

Thanks for posting this.

Here are some notes on faith from a dispensational perspective. Four doctrines of election, justification, faith, and sanctification strongly influence denominational differences. I may discuss those a bit later, but I believe you may find these notes to be helpful in conjunction with Scriptural study through faith in Christ.

DOCTRINE OF FAITH
Eph 483, 2/19/87; 5/8/77; Rom 10:8 4/13/79; Eph 172 12/8/85

A. Definition.
1. Basically there are three systems of human perception.
a. Faith is a non-meritorious system of perception based on confidence in the authority and the veracity of another. Faith is not based on one's own knowledge, as is rationalism or empiricism.
b. Rationalism is reason from the source of knowledge in itself, superior to and independent of any other source of perception. Rationalism says that reality is what you think to be true. Rationalism requires a high I.Q., from which systems of philosophy are often developed.
c. Empiricism is knowledge from perception by observation and experience rather than by theory. All ideas are derived from some sensuous experience using the eyes, ears, nose, touch, etc, having no innate or a priori conceptions.
2. Perception by faith is always non-meritorious. It depends on the authority, veracity, and ability of someone else. Faith requires authority.
3. Faith also means a system of doctrine or a creed perceived by faith; i.e., what is believed.

B. Etymology.
1. Hebrew.
a. The verb AMAN means to believe, to support, to use someone as a prop, a crutch; to use someone else to be supported. The root meaning is a foundation on which you build something.
(1) In Isa 28:16, the hiphil means to cause to believe. The hiphil in Gen 15:6 uses AMAN for the salvation of Abraham, meaning to use God as a prop and foundation.
(2) Further, AMAN means to prove oneself, to stay faithful to, to remain or continue.
(3) Metaphorically, AMAN means to be faithful, trustworthy, and sure, as in Prov 19:8; Gen 42:20; 1 Kg 8:26; Hos 5:9.
b. The noun EMUNAH means faithfulness, security, or that on which security is based, e.g., the integrity of God.
c. The noun EMUN means integrity, fidelity, reliability.
d. The noun OMEN means doctrine, truth, faithfulness.
e. The noun EMETH means faithfulness, integrity, stability.
f. The verb BATACH is a wrestling term, which means to trust in the sense of slamming your troubles on God; this has a faith-rest connotation. In Ps 37:3, 91:2, also means to confide in someone.
g. The verb CHASAH means to hide in the cleft of a rock, as a rabbit does when chased by a fox. This verb is used for suffering and adversity. It means to trust in the sense of taking shelter or taking refuge in Bible doctrine; to believe in the integrity of God, Ps 57:1, 2:12, 5:12, 25:20, 7:1.
h. The verb JACHAL means to trust the Lord in time of great pain or disaster, Lam 3:21,24. In Job 13:15, it means to have hope and to wait. It is used for faith under great pressure, intense suffering, and pain.
i. The verb QAWAH is the strongest word for faith, used in Ps 25:3. It depicts a fine thread woven into a giant rope that cannot be broken. It is used in Isa 40:31 for the faith of a mature believer. In Lam 3:25 it means to wait. This word means that faith which gets its strength from outside of itself, connoting the non-meritorious aspect of faith. All merit lies in the object of faith.

2. Greek.
a. The noun PISTIS.
(1) Used as an attribute, PISTIS is what causes trust or faith, reliability, faithfulness, or integrity, Tit 2:10; 2 Thes 1:4.
(2) In the active sense, PISTIS means faith, confidence, trust, faith as a recognition of and acceptance of Bible doctrine. In the active sense, faith is used in three ways.
(a) Saving faith, Eph 2:8; 1 Jn 5:4-5.
(b) The three stages of the faith-rest drill, Rom 3:20; Heb 4:3.
(c) The metabolization of Bible doctrine.
(3) The passive meaning of PISTIS is Bible doctrine, meaning that which is believed, i.e., doctrine, the body of belief, which is obedience to authority. PISTIS is so translated "doctrine" is such passages as Gal 1:23; 2 Pet 1:5; 1 Tim 1:19, 4:1,6; Heb 11.
b. The noun PISTOS, used as an adjective in the passive sense means being trustworthy, worthy of trust, faithful, dependable, and inspiring trust. In the active sense, it means trusting or believing.
c. The verb PISTEUO means to believe, to trust something to someone, to use someone as an object of faith, Gal 2:16. It only takes a little more than no faith at all to be saved, Acts 16:31.
d. The verb PEITHO in the passive means to come to believe, to obey, to be persuaded or convinced. The perfect passive means to have confidence, to be absolutely convinced, to be certain. The active meaning as in Gal 1:10 means to convince, to persuade, to appeal, to win over. The perfect tense with a present meaning means to depend on someone, to trust in someone, to have confidence.
e. The verb PISTOO means to show oneself faithful; to be convinced; to have confidence, 2 Tim 3:14.

C. Biblical Use of "Faith" or PISTIS.
1. PISTIS is used for doctrine in Heb 11:1-3. "In fact, doctrine is the reality from which we keep receiving confidence, the proof of matters not being seen; for by means of doctrine men of old gained approval."
2. A description of faith is found in 2 Cor 4:18. "We look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen [essence of God]; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal." Faith is the means by which we perceive reality in the invisible essence of God.
3. Sometimes both the faith-rest technique and doctrine are described in the meaning of PISTIS, as in 2 Cor 5:7. "We walk by faith and not by sight." Your eyes are in your soul, and your soul must have Bible doctrine. We see the unseen through doctrine. Doctrine gives us relationship with the integrity of God, which sustains us in time of disaster. We see the justice and integrity of God through doctrine.
4. Heb 11:6, "And without doctrine resident in the soul, it is impossible to please God, for when one is occupied with God, he must be convinced that He is and that He becomes a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."
5. Rom 10:17, "Doctrine comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
6. Gal 5:22, "The fruit of the Spirit is doctrine."
7. In each verse above, PISTIS relates faith to the perception of Bible doctrine. PISTIS means both faith and doctrine. All perception of doctrine is accomplished through the function of faith perception.
8. 1 Tim 1:19 and 4:1 use PISTIS for the doctrine of demons.

D. Faith is the means of salvation adjustment to the justice of God.
1. Believing is non-meritorious perception. The merit is always found in the object of faith (Jesus Christ) and not in the subject, the one having the faith (the believer).
2. That salvation is by faith and faith alone in Jesus Christ is documented in many passages, including Acts 16:31; Jn 3:16,18-19,36 6:47, 20:31; Rom 3:22,28, 4:5, 9:30; Gal 2:16, 3:26; 1 Jn 3:23, 5:4-5. Salvation adjustment to the justice of God is believing in Christ.
3 The justice of God is our point of contact with the essence of God because justice judged our sins in Christ on the cross. The mechanics of receiving all blessing from the justice of God is grace. Grace is non-meritorious, compatible with faith, Eph 2:8-9.

E. Faith is a system of doctrine or what is believed.
1. The object of faith is Bible doctrine. This includes both doctrine in perception and in application. Bible doctrine is invisible. Faith is confidence in the unseen. Bible doctrine must be transferred to our right lobe by means of faith.
2. The perception concept is related to post-salvation epistemological rehabilitation. The application concept is related to the faith-rest drill or reverse concentration.
3. Once you have Bible doctrine on the launching pad of your soul, then the faith-rest drill in its maximum use applies doctrine to experience.
4. Maturity adjustment to the justice of God demands maximum Bible doctrine in the right lobe, which comes through the daily perception, metabolization, and application of Bible doctrine.
5. The intake of Bible doctrine results in maximum blessing to your soul. Blessing does not come because of your self-righteousness, personality, good works, or anything else.

F. The Object of Faith.
1. The object of faith always has the merit. There is no merit in the subject because faith is a non-meritorious system of perception.
2. All the faith in the world secures nothing but condemnation from the integrity of God. We are born with faith. We first learn vocabulary by faith.
3. However, the tiniest bit of faith in Christ secures eternal salvation. It only takes a little more faith than no faith at all. It is the object of faith that counts, not the worthiness of the one with faith.
4. There is no merit in believing; the merit lies in the object of faith.
5. For salvation adjustment to the justice of God, the object of faith is Jesus Christ. For maturity adjustment to the justice of God, the object of faith is Bible doctrine.
6. Faith is not something we do, but it is the channel by which we appropriate what God has done for us.
7. For rebound adjustment to the justice of God, the object of faith is two-fold, depending on the believer's spiritual growth.
a. The Scripture is the object of faith for the immature believer, 1 Jn 1:9; 1 Cor 11:31; Ps 35, 32:5, 38:18; Prov 28:13.
b. For the mature believer, doctrine is the object of faith, and the integrity of God is the basis for understanding the forgiveness of our sins through rebound.
8. Through these adjustments to the justice of God and blessings from the integrity of God, Jesus Christ becomes the author and finisher of our faith, Heb 12:2.

G. The Application of Faith in the Function of the Faith-Rest Drill.
1. Faith must be exercised as it develops. Learning doctrine develops faith. As this occurs, faith has the increasing ability of perception, of learning more and greater details in the Word of God, Heb 4:1-3.
2. God has blessing which will only be yours if you relate totally to the integrity of God by learning doctrine, 1 Pet 1:7-8.
3. Bible doctrine is the royal family's currency. Bible doctrine is the working currency in the life of every believer. Learning doctrine gives you currency to understand the integrity of God.
4. Abraham's circumcision is the classical illustration of the mature believer with maximum adjustment to the justice of God making application of his faith, Rom 4:17-21. Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac was the proof or testing of his mature faith, Gen 22:1-18.
5. The mechanics of the faith-rest drill comprise three stages.
a. Stage one: Faith claims promises from the Bible, Heb 4:1-3, which can be called mixing the promises of God with faith.
b. Stage two: Faith claims doctrinal rationales, like the essence of God rationale, the plan of God rationale, the logistical grace rationale, the a fortiori rationale, the escrow/election rationale, etc. This stage is known as reverse concentration, the application of doctrine.
c. Stage three: Faith reaches doctrinal conclusions and is in control of the situation. This becomes the function of spiritual self esteem. It is the third stage of the faith-rest drill that brings you to spiritual self-esteem.

H. The Victory of Faith, 1 Jn 5:4-5.
Relationship with the integrity of God is greater than any pressure or disaster in life. It is more important than anything in life, whether failures, successes, pressures, or prosperity.

(c) 1989, by R. B. Thieme, Jr. All rights reserved.

Here we go again ...

;o)

Whole lot of verbiage there. It can be reduced to its lowest common denominator, that being....Accepting that there is a Heaven, whether one is allowed in or not depends on the individual and the gate keeper. All else is extraneous.