Posted on 09/26/2005 6:29:50 PM PDT by laney
C&V, si'l vous plait.
If I please....what?
FYI: All you visitors to New York City be warned, the Muslim cab drivers will be fasting all day long (during Ramadan) and they will be very cranky!
You said, "The Messiah came out of that tomb at sunset on the Sabbath and I don't think you want to try and argue that with me scripturally."
I love a challenge.
See "Christ died on a Wednesday" thread 9/28. I've posted a couple of comments there that will outline my position. Good talking to you.
Well, that curious but it does not prove Christ rose from the dead before sundown on Saturday. Besides, the Wednesday theory for Christ's death is hardly a fact.
Plus, you need to deal with statements like, "Now when He rose early on the first day of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had cast seven demons." (Mark 16:9)
You're stated that they were inexorably linked, but shown me no evidence. I've shown you evidence in scripture where the holy days were being celebrated without the Levitical priesthood and I've shown you where they are unlinked in Hebrews. Your argument is really with the book of Hebrews and/or Paul of Tarsus.
Last word on this particular subject is yours if you want it.
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
This seems pretty clear. It is a sign between the Lord and the children of Israel...FOR EVER. It is a PERPETUAL covenant. The seventh day, the sabbath of the Lord.
The Lord of the Sabbath had the prerogative to change the day of the week that was the Sabbath from the last day to the first. This He did but rising from the dead on the first day of the week, gathering with His disciples after the resurrection on the first day of the week, and His apostles meeting with the flock, breaking bread, and hearing their teaching on the first day of the week.
You're got the traditional explanation down pat. However, nowhere in scripture is the 7th day sabbath changed to any other day. The 7th day was never made unholy or desanctified by anyone, much less Jesus.
Historically, the sabbath was changed by the early Roman church for a variety of reasons. The Roman church changed it on its own authority. They believe that they are the true church of God and have the authority to change it. Protestant churches apparently go along with this notion because it has become entrenched in history and tradition. I would recommend that you study the issue.
I quoted in detail from Lev. 23 and pointed out the relationship between the words, "priest", "sacrifice", and "holy days". You took your Jeffersonian scissors and removed the portions that you think no longer apply to fit modern ersatz practices.
I'll take the last word.
Historically, if you include the NT. You have yet to show us all a place in the NT where the early church post resurrection met on the last day of the week.
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
Jews and non-Jews alike knew that on the sabbath the word of God was to preached.
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
It was Paul's custom to preach on the sabbath.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Christians going down to the river to pray on the sabbath.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Interesting how the gentiles *expected* to be preached to on the sabbath.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
The first mega-church?
Again, you are arguing from what you presently believe and are extending it back to biblical times. Remember, the ONLY scripture they had was the "old" testament. The 7th day sabbath was one of the normative, commanded days to come together and worship the Lord God. The thought of NOT keeping the sabbath never crossed anyones mind. It wasn't even an issue in the bible. Compare that to the issue of not physically circumcising gentiles. That was a HUGE issue that required a church council to decide and it was well documented in Acts.
Surely if Paul or any other Christian were breaking the sabbath they would have been accused by the Jews of doing so. Yet not one mention of it in all of scripture. Curious don't you think?
I see you have already listed this scripture in Acts:16. I have always been struck by the fact that Paul had received an earlier vision while in Troas(verse 8-9)and got ready to leave for Macedonia at once. Upon arriving in Macedonia they went on the Sabbath where they found people of God waiting to hear the message. Now these folks, living in a Roman colony (Philippi), were undoubtedly gentiles who had already heard of Jesus.....from someone. It is interesting that Paul and his companions found them gathered on the Sabbath.
Now it says that one of them, a woman named Lydia and members of her household, were baptized. It does not mention it but you are left assuming that the other people gathered were already baptized and probably already Christian. It never mentions the "Man of Macedonia" who was in Paul's vision again so he also may have been a local member knowing of the need for Paul's presence.
Thanks, but I already dealt with those verses. Paul was there to dispute with the Jews about their Messiah. It was not a Christian worship. These were Jews and proselyte gentiles to Judaism in synagogue. You can read for yourself I suppose.
I repeat once again, where in the NT after the resurrection do you find the church meeting on the last day of the week to break bread and hear the apostles' teaching?
Are you folks really seriously suggesting that Acts 16 is about Christians meeting to break bread and hear the apostles' teaching, ala Acts 20:7? Of course Jews continued to meet on the last day of the week. They were still unbelievers in Messiah Jesus.
My, you are desperate if you cannot see the difference between Paul disputing with the Jews about Jesus or presenting the gospel to some women (e.g., "The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul", v. 14) on the last day of the week, and Christian's gathering on the first day.
The two most reliable early manuscripts do not have Mark 16:9-20. It could have been added by a over zealous copyist. This is the section that includes the snake handling also.
Per my post #112 These folks were not Jews. They lived in Macedonia, a colony of Rome. Paul was an Apostle to the gentiles.....not the Jews.
Did you even read the passage you quoted?
"Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul." (Acts 16:14)
As I pointed out before, these were gentile proselytes to Judaism, like Cornelius in Acts 10. They were following the Jewish customs, including last day Sabbath observance.
If you read the story carefully, you will see that it follows that pattern of Paul, first to go to the Jews in the synagogue to tell them about Messiah Jesus, then to turn to the gentiles, some of whom, like Lydia, were proselytes to Judaism, but had not fully converted.
Well I guess that settles it. BTW, which human tradition says these early manuscripts are "most reliable"?
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Nearly the WHOLE city of Anitoch in Posidia was proselyte gentiles? Kind of hard to believe that a city of 100,000 people had that many proselytes. But even if it did, so what? Your position is that Paul had in essence "come to Jesus" meetings every sabbath day. Then you suppose that he had secret meetings not mentioned in the bible where he preached to those who had come to Jesus the day before.
Acts has a couple of sermons by Paul. He never says "and after you come to Jesus meet with us tomorrow at our church because we believe that Christians should worship on Sunday, not the sabbath because we don't have to keep the sabbath anymore." Yet they kept coming back sabbath after sabbath. Scripture records that Paul preached sabbath after sabbath. Scripture even records absolutely that Christians met in synagogues:
Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
Paul states that he was beating Christians who were meeting in synagogues. And when were they meeting in synagogues?
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Sabbath days. It can't really be much clearer...unless you want to embrace your tradition over scripture.
I repeat once again, where in the NT after the resurrection do you find the church meeting on the last day of the week to break bread and hear the apostles' teaching?
I've got to give you credit for your debate style. You state a question and then disregard any and all answers that are given unless it's the one you want to hear. Nonetheless, the apostles broke bread and met every day:
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Your task is still to prove, from scripture, that God ever instructed Christians that the sabbath that he had made holy, the 7th day, was ever made non-holy. Here's one more proof text that shows this isn't so. Jesus said:
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
The event that Jesus is discussing is the destruction of Jerusalem, which happened in 70 AD. Now why would God on earth, Jesus Christ, if he knew that the sabbath day was going to be abolished upon his death on the cross, possibly make reference to a sabbath day that was no longer going to exist 35 years later?
Easily explained as translator bias. Here's the same verse from "The Message" bible:
Mar 16:9 [After rising from the dead, Jesus appeared early on Sunday morning to Mary Magdalene, whom he had delivered from seven demons
Jesus did indeed appear early on the first day to Mary Magdalene after rising from the dead.
Here's the same verse in the King James 1611 edition:
Mar 16:9 Now when Iesus was risen early, the first day of the weeke, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seuen deuils.
Here's the same verse from the Holman Christian Standard Bible:
Mar 16:9 [Early on the first day of the week, after He had risen, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had driven seven demons.
Here's the Contemporary English Version:
Mar 16:9 Very early on the first day of the week, after Jesus had risen to life, he appeared to Mary Magdalene. Earlier he had forced seven demons out of her.
The point is, depending on belief, this sentence can be translated either as:
"After Jesus rose, he appeared early on the first day of the week to first Mary."
or
"After Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary."
Translator bias. Since the greek has no puncuation either is correct grammatically.
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