Posted on 09/30/2005 9:26:35 AM PDT by HarleyD
I've always wondered if the dispensationalist believes that God wants our Jewish brothers and sisters to become Christians.
Does the dispensationalist deny for the Jews the same Good News they've received themselves?
Um, didn't God ordain that this nation would call itself Israel?
Therefore we must conclude that it is God's will that they call themselves Israel, isn't that true?
And if God did not want them to call themselves Israel, do you think they would now be called Israel?
Or do you believe that God did not have a hand in establishing this nation called Israel?
That's ridiculous. There is genetic evidence of their being Israel/Jewish. They've been using the technique to identify Jewish communities.
You honestly don't think those people disappeared after 70 AD, do you? You can follow them in the pages of history. They use the books of the Jews, the methods, the traditions, etc.
Besides, you avoid the obvious fact. They were born in that country. Born there. It is their home.
Are you yearning to throw out of their country of birth any other people that you can think of?
You obviously missed ymy point. I didn't say the people there were not Jews. But even not all folks who are Jewish by their religion are physically descended from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob.
Of course all people who claim to be Jewish are not physically descended from AIJ. I assume that Rahab came to be Jewish in faith since she's in the geneology.
But you continue to miss my point or to ignore it.
The people born there are citizens of Israel. It is their home....the land of their birth. 80+ percent of them.
Do you accept that Israel is the home of the people who were born there?
***We ask our dispensational friends to consider what their position will be if the present Jewish occupation ends in disaster.
Not if, but when.***
It will mean that the age of Grace will last longer and that the the destroyed modern state of Israel is not the one of prophecy but one made by man.
The dispensationalists need to realize that the fig tree parable does NOT refer to modern Israel.
Do you accept that the people born in Israel are in their homeland?
Upwards of 80% have been born there.
Shadows and types. To understand the spiritual, compare it with the natural. When A kernel of corn is planted in the earth, it yields many kernels. When the truth is planted, another waters, but God gives the increase. Of such is the Kingdom which is not of this world.
Yes, shadows and types. Even to the sacrifices and the cleansing of the 'temple'. . . . and Passover . . . and circumcision . . . and baptism . . . and Communion . . . and Marriage.
And so what does this have to do with the question of whether or not modern Israel is the fulfillment of dispensational prophecy? Or who is abusing whom in the Middle East conflict?
Do you think modern Israel is fulfilling this injunction: "And if a stranger dwells with you in your land, you shall not mistreat him. The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God" (Lev 19:33,34)?
However, they did not separate them from the church as the dispensationalists do. The ethnic Jews would join the true, spiritual Israel (the continuing Israel of God), the body of Christ, the church. See Eph. 2:11ff. Dispensationalists speak of the Jews as separate froom the church while Paul and the rest of the NT speak clearly of the the unity of the people of God (Eph. 3 calls it the mystery, once kept hidden for ages, now revealed).
I suggest you see John Murray's commentary on this passage on Romans to which you refer. Even if you disagree, you'll get the answer to your question.
What about all the people that have converted to Judaism after the start of the new covenant? Haven't they been following a false religion?
I think that there are arguable points about the treatment of strangers on both sides of the war in Israel.
What does it matter if they are the fulfillment of anything?
They live there. It is their homeland in which they were born.
Do you accept that Israel is the birth homeland of over 80% of the population that lives there?
You're the one hung up on dispensationalism right now. Forget it. Stow it. Throw it away for the moment.
Deal only with the homeland of those who were born there.
It is an incomplete religion, and therefore a non-salvific religion.
I distinguish between it and what is commonly referred to as a "false religion." (A created religion dreamed up by the arrogance of man as depicted in Romans 1 & 2 in which they worship the created order rather than the creator.)
The advantage for us is that their adherents are taught the OT scripture which is the real Word of God. It is an inerrant starting point.
I am not a dispensationalist. The only way to heaven is thru faith in Christ. They (jews, gentiles) are two separate groups, but all are one in Christ. That does not preclude a special plan for salvation the jewish people by God.
I have no problem with that, but I'm not sure where it gets you. Is a naturalized citizen of the US less a cirtizen than one natively born? What is your point? That native born in Israel have a right to abuse "the stranger within their gates"? Are you trying to argue they are innocent, or they are justified in their actions?
It is an incomplete religion, and therefore a non-salvific religion.
Is a half-truth less false than an outright lie? Rabbinic Judaism denies that basic truth of Scripture, that God has revealed Himself as a triunity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He revealed Himself to Abraham that way. He revealed Himself to Moses that way. Finally, He revealed Himself in the person of His son Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, born under the law. Rabbinic Judaism rejects that testimony. They have taken a portion of God's perfect revelation and subjected it to rabbininic revisionism, resulting in modern Judaism in its various flavors.
In this sense it is much the same in its fundamentals as Islam. They start with part of the truth (selective bits of both the OT and NT) and add their own spin.
Why try to split hairs?
I'm arguing that they are home, that they are responsible for their home, and whatever they do, positive or negative, is their own business.
The important point, though, is that they have as much right to be there as any US born citizen has a right to be here.
BTW, you can't have them responsible for the biblical treatment of aliens and also have them not being Israel.
They're just another secular state, coincidentally named Israel, or they are a state that must follow some OT mandate about aliens. Takes your picks.
For example, the majority of freepers (if not Americans) want our illegal aliens kicked out and sent back to their places of birth. Their attitude: "Our country; we can run it the way we want."
Comparing jews to illegal mexicans is totally invalid. The jewish people (and that is what Israelis are) have an ancient claim to the land. First of all, God gave it to them. Second, jews have been living in the area continuously since 1500 BC (in 1850, 2/3 of the population of Jerusalem was jewish). Third, many jews were FORCED to leave by Romans after the Bar Kovka revolt in 135 AD, at which time the land was named "Palestine." Fourth, the land was most uninhabited and barren until Jews started buying and settling it in the late 1800s.
There is no basis for your comparison. In fact, I find it revolting and it has a tinge of anti-semitism since it ignores the historical facts.
I split hairs because it's necessary to split hairs.
You are wrong about the trinity. There is only a foreshadowing of a complete doctrine of the Trinity in the OT. In retrospect, Christians can go to the OT and see these things.
Part of the point of John 14 and the coming of the Holy Spirit in Acts is a fuller revelation of the place of the Holy Spirit. Likewise, the place of the Son was not understood by those who considered Jesus' elevation of Himself into the Godhead to be blasphemy (to include his disciples....how often are we told they didn't understand!)
However, Jesus affirmed of those rulers and teachers that they were properly in the seat of Moses.
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