To: HarleyD; Buggman; xzins; Corin Stormhands; blue-duncan; Frumanchu; topcat54
1) the Church is one in the Old Testament and New, Well, that's wrong because Jesus said "Upon this Rock I will (future perfect tense) build my Church."
IOW, prior to that time Christ had not YET built his church, so what occurred prior to that time was NOT THE CHURCH!
Christ came to establish and build his church. It was not here when he came. The Church did not exist in the Old Testament, so the "Church" cannot be "one in the Old Testament and New". Jesus did not build something that was already here.
To: P-Marlowe; HarleyD; Buggman; xzins; Corin Stormhands; blue-duncan; Frumanchu
Well, that's wrong because Jesus said "Upon this Rock I will (future perfect tense) build my Church." What is "the Rock" that Jesus was speaking of? Be careful cuz there's gonna be a follow up question.
53 posted on
09/30/2005 12:59:23 PM PDT by
topcat54
To: P-Marlowe; Buggman; xzins; Corin Stormhands; blue-duncan; Frumanchu; topcat54
"Well, that's wrong because Jesus said "Upon this Rock I will (future perfect tense) build my Church." IOW, prior to that time Christ had not YET built his church, so what occurred prior to that time was NOT THE CHURCH! Oh pleazzzeee!! You want to call every Catholic over here?
Buggman and you would like to assert the church and Israel are different. Buggman asked in post #39:
1) 1) That the Church is not synonimous with Israel, and is therefore not necessarily bound by all the commands which God said were eternal commands , or 2) That by not keeping the commandments that God set for Israel (the Sabbath, for just one example), you are deliberately sinning
Yet the prophecy of Christ coming was to shepherd His people:
Mat 2:5-6 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written through the prophet, And thou Bethlehem, land of Judah, Art in no wise least among the princes of Judah: For out of thee shall come forth a governor, Who shall be shepherd of my people Israel.
We know that the nation Israel was not our Lord Jesus' sheep but believers. Compare:
Joh 10:14-16 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me, even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.
Simple deduction. If you still doubt then consider Paul's comments:
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
I'd certainly like an interpretation. God obviously didn't feel that if you were born of Israel that automatically made you an Israelite, "heir to the promise". Or here's a good Calvinist verse:
Rom 11:7-8 What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.
But I'll end my scripture quest with this little bit from the book of Galatians:
Gal 6:14-16 But far be it from me to glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Paul calls the believers, those who are new creatures, the Israel of God. And he isn't refering to the nation of Israel.
77 posted on
09/30/2005 4:12:54 PM PDT by
HarleyD
("...and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48)
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