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To: gbcdoj

Saying the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as their eternal love, is NOT the same as saying the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son.

You don't seem to understand. Saying what you just said depersonalizes the Holy Spirit and reduces him to being a non-person. Plus, it establishes a semi-Sabellianism with the Holy Spirit.

The Melkite Church believes there were only Seven Ecumenical Councils, and those convened since 1054 are not validly ecumenical because it takes the assent of all of the patriarchates to make a council ecumenical, not just the Pope of Rome alone.

St. Gennadius of Constantinople who is considered a saint by both Rome and Orthodoxy held this to be true.

If tagging a council with the term ecumenical makes it so, how do you deal with the fact the so-called Fourth Council of Constantinople, held in 869, was annulled by John VIII, and the council of 879 declared itself ecumenical. cf. Francis Dvornik.


38 posted on 10/18/2005 4:32:30 PM PDT by JohnRoss (We need a real conservative in 2008)
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To: JohnRoss; Hermann the Cherusker
Saying what you just said [the Creed of Pope Paul VI] depersonalizes the Holy Spirit and reduces him to being a non-person. Plus, it establishes a semi-Sabellianism with the Holy Spirit.

So, according to you, the Roman Church believes that the Holy Spirit is a "non-person" and establishes "semi-Sabellianism" in our Symbols of Faith (NB: the filioque is also contained in the 1998 Profession of Faith required of all Latin-rite bishops and many others under Can. 833 of the Code of Canon Law)! Why in the world do you remain in communion with us heretics?

"From the Father through the Son" means that the Son is principle of the Spirit together with the Father, as St. Thomas says: "Therefore, because the Son receives from the Father that the Holy Ghost proceeds from Him, it can be said that the Father spirates the Holy Ghost through the Son, or that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father through the Son, which has the same meaning ... if we consider the persons themselves spirating, then, as the Holy Ghost proceeds both from the Father and from the Son, the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father immediately, as from Him, and mediately, as from the Son; and thus He is said to proceed from the Father through the Son." (I q. 36 a. 3)

This was discussed and agreed upon at the Ecumenical Council of Florence, which decreed in Laetentur coeli: "we declare that what the holy Doctors and Fathers say, namely, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, tends to this meaning, that by this it is signified that the Son also is the cause, according to the Greeks, and according to the Latins, the principle of the subsistence of the Holy Spirit, as is the Father also."

The Melkite Church believes there were only Seven Ecumenical Councils

Bishop Elya disagrees with you. Why should I take your word about the Melkites over that of a Bishop of your Church?

If tagging a council with the term ecumenical makes it so, how do you deal with the fact ... [that] the council of 879 declared itself ecumenical.

The Council of 879 was not a valid Council - Pope John VIII rejected it and apparently St. Photius was again excommunicated. The acts as they've come down seem to be partially forged (e.g., a fake letter from John VIII rejecting the filioque as heretical) - check the article on this Council in the New Catholic Encyclopedia and this article by Philip Blosser on the Council of 879-880.

42 posted on 10/18/2005 5:10:38 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Let us ask the Lord with tears, that according to his will so he would shew his mercy to us Jud 8:17)
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