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Catholics Disagree Over New Vatican Decree (here come the reactions)
Yahoo News ^ | November 23, 2005 | Richard Ostling

Posted on 11/23/2005, 8:14:19 PM by NYer

A new Vatican decree against gays in the priesthood has brought mixed reactions from U.S. Roman Catholic observers, with some seeing notable benefits and others predicting morale problems and a worsening clergy shortage.

The decree, approved by Pope Benedict XVI, is set for release next week. The Italian text was leaked Tuesday, and a Vatican official confirmed its accuracy to The Associated Press.

It says men should not be admitted to seminaries or ordained as priests if they practice homosexuality, have "deeply rooted homosexual tendencies" or "support so-called gay culture." Those with only "transitory" homosexual tendencies must be celibate three years before being ordained as deacons, the step before priesthood.

Some observers said it will be difficult to define what is meant by "deeply rooted" or "transitory" tendencies.

"I have no idea how they will apply it. It will just be a nightmare," said the Rev. Eugene Lauer of the New York-based National Pastoral Life Center.

A prominent gay priest, speaking anonymously, said the dozen homosexual clergy he has spoken with are "horrified" by the document.

The priest said that even emotionally mature gay men who are committed to practicing celibacy "will be completely discouraged" from applying, and gays already in the priesthood will be demoralized. Some clerics may even quit, he said.

"Our seminaries are likely to be depopulated to a significant extent," said the Rev. Donald Cozzens of John Carroll University. He cited estimates that put gay priests at 25 percent to 50 percent; Lauer guessed that 10 percent is closer to the mark.

Cozzens also warned that "the hunters might turn out to be the hunted," meaning that there are gay priests among Vatican officials, bishops and other church leaders.

But Brian Saint-Paul of Crisis magazine predicted little effect on the number of priests because, he said, seminaries and younger priests have become much more conservative the past two decades and moral liberalism is declining. "That generation is passing," he said.

The Rev. Richard John Neuhaus of First Things magazine said there is reason to believe that the decree will lead to a significant increase in candidates, because many would-be priests have been turned off by "the presence, and sometimes dominance, of a gay culture" in seminaries.

Neuhaus said the Vatican is basically reaffirming centuries of church teaching, with the new implication that "this time we mean it."

Jason Berry, a journalist who has covered priestly sexual abuse scandals since 1984, said the Vatican action was clearly prompted by the crisis and by the fact that most U.S. cases have involved priests and teenage boys.

"The priesthood is a huge closet. We all know that from the research that's been done," he said. He said that the Vatican is avoiding the central question of "Why can't the priesthood attract stable heterosexuals?" The answer, he said, is the ban on married men as priests.


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: benedictxvi; catholic; gaypriests; homosexual; homosexualagenda; pope; seminary; vatican
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1 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:14:20 PM by NYer
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...


2 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:15:44 PM by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer

I used to wonder why so many priests had bad breath.


3 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:16:47 PM by pipecorp (Let's have a CRUSADE! , the muslims have already started. 1800 replies and not a single post!)
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To: sionnsar; All
Also from Yahoo News ........

* * * * *

A new Vatican document on homosexuality in the Catholic priesthood touched off a storm of criticism on Wednesday from those who say the Church is missing the point and using gays as scapegoats for its sex scandals.

The document, which says the Church can admit those who have clearly overcome homosexual tendencies for at least three years, is due to be released officially next week.

But it said practicing homosexuals and those with "deep-seated" gay tendencies and those who support a gay culture should be barred, a stand which was welcomed by conservatives both in the Catholic Church and in other religions.

"This looks like a diversionary tactic to deflect public attention away from the Vatican's real problem which is child sex abuse by clergy," said Peter Tatchell of the British gay pressure group OutRage!

"The Pope should be tackling pedophiles within the Church, not witch-hunting gay people," he told Reuters.

The document re-enforces standing policy that many in the Church believe has not been properly enforced. Its urgency has been highlighted by the 2002 sexual abuse scandal in the United States, where some 80 percent of the victims were boys.

While the Vatican has said the document was drafted to deal with the scandals, some critics saw it as a diversionary tactic.

"At a time when the Church should be taking responsibility for the harm created by a devastating sex abuse scandal, they are instead using gay people as scapegoats," said Joe Solmonese, president of the Human Rights Campaign, a U.S. gay rights group.

"This decree is a diversion that neither keeps children safe nor holds criminals responsible," he said.

CONSERVATIVES CHEER

Conservative Catholics have cheered the document, as did some sectors of the Anglican Church, which itself has been split by over the issue of ordaining openly gay clergy.

"That's a policy that we have been promoting and that we support whole-heartedly," said Canon Tunde Popoola, director of communications for the Anglican Church of Nigeria. "It gladdens my heart to hear others coming up with such a policy."

But Father Tom Reese, a U.S. Jesuit scholar and author, said the Vatican had not necessarily done its homework on the issue.

"The Vatican is making decisions about the appropriateness of ordaining homosexuals in total ignorance of how many current priests are homosexuals, how well they observe celibacy and how well they do ministry," he said.

Reese, who lost his job as editor of the U.S. Jesuit weekly America because the journal displeased Pope Benedict, said the Vatican appeared to be missing the point.

"If someone is called to the priesthood by God but denied it by church officials, then it is not a violation of a human right, it is a violation of a divine right--the right of God to call whomever he chooses to the priesthood," he said.

The document does not affect those men who are already priests, but some said it could hurt future vocations.

"If these regulations had previously existed, many existing archbishops and cardinals would have never been allowed to enter the priesthood .... this edict is pure hypocrisy," said Tatchell. "The Church will not survive without its gay clergy."

The document, an "instruction" by the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education which has been approved by the Pope, distinguishes between "deep-seated" homosexual tendencies and what it calls "the expression of a transitory problem."

But John Allen, a columnist for the National Catholic Reporter in the United States, said this would give seminary directors latitude to continue to make individual judgments.

"Canon (Church) lawyers have told me you can slice and dice this thing a thousand different ways," Allen said.

4 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:17:25 PM by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer
A prominent gay priest, speaking anonymously, said the dozen homosexual clergy he has spoken with are "horrified" by the document.

Well, that's a good sign.

5 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:17:43 PM by Diago (http://www.margaretsanger.blogspot.com)
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To: NYer
Jason Berry, ... The answer, he said, is the ban on married men as priests.

Jason Berry, an individual unaffected by facts.

6 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:22:19 PM by A.A. Cunningham
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To: NYer

Headline says "Catholics". First sentence says "U.S. Roman Catholic observers,". Big difference.


7 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:22:49 PM by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: All
And still more .... from the International Herald Tribune (gotta love this headline!)

* * * * *

Vatican bans gay priests, even celibates

ROME A new Vatican document excludes from the priesthood most gay men, with few exceptions, banning in strong and specific language candidates "who are actively homosexual, have deep-seated homosexual tendencies, or support the so-called 'gay culture."'

 
The long-awaited document, which has leaked out in pieces over the past few months, was published Tuesday in its entirety in Italian by an Italian Catholic Web site, Adista.
 
The document appears only to allow ordination for candidates who experienced "transitory" homosexual tendencies that were "clearly overcome" at least three years before ordination as a deacon, the last step before priesthood. It does not define what is meant by "overcome." Several critics of the document worried that language would make it nearly impossible for men who believe their basic orientation is gay - but who are celibate - to become priests.
 
The anticipation of the document has divided Catholics, especially in the United States, igniting debate over whether this is an appropriate response to the recent sex scandals and whether celibate gay men can still be good priests.
 
On both sides of that divide, there was general agreement Tuesday that the document presented a strong deterrent to homosexual men applying for the priesthood - with some limited room, however, for seminaries to make exceptions.
 
The document puts the onus on local bishops, seminary leaders, and the seminaries' spiritual advisers "to evaluate all of the qualities of the personality and assure that the candidate does not have sexual disorders that are incompatible with priesthood."
 
A candidate for the priesthood, in turn, would have the obligation to be honest about his sexuality.
 
"It would be gravely dishonest for a candidate to hide his own homosexuality, regardless of everything, to arrive at ordination," the document states. "Such an inauthentic attitude does not correspond to the spirit of truth, loyalty, and availability that must characterize the personality of one who considers himself called to serve Christ."
 
Vatican spokesmen declined to comment Tuesday, saying the document would be published officially on Nov. 29.
 
While church documents as early as 1961 have banned homosexuals, conservative Catholics complain that the ban has often been ignored while some liberals say the priesthood has been enriched by gay celibate men.
 
As such, many conservatives called the document a necessary correction, saying that the number of gay men in seminaries has deterred heterosexual men from applying for the priesthood.
 
"I don't think it's anything new or different from the church's constant teaching, but it's new in the sense that the teaching has been widely disregarded in seminaries," said the Reverend Joseph Fessio, a Jesuit priest who is editor of Ignatius Press, which published many of Pope Benedict XVI's books before he was elected in April.
 
The document draws a clear line at banning active homosexuals, and what many experts said was a less clear one in also banning candidates for the priesthood with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies," while leaving the term undefined.
 
Generally, it says, homosexuals "find themselves in a situation that seriously obstructs them from properly relating to men and women."
 
"It's a clear statement by the Vatican that gay men are not welcome in seminaries and religious orders," said the Reverend James Martin, a Jesuit priest and author of "In Good Company: the Fast Track from the Corporate World to Poverty, Chastity and Obedience."
 
"It raises the bar so high that it would be difficult to imagine gay men feeling encouraged to pursue a life in the priesthood," he added.
 
 
The document concerns only candidates for the priesthood, not already ordained priests.

* * * * *

"It raises the bar so high that it would be difficult to imagine gay men feeling encouraged to pursue a life in the priesthood," he added.

Bears repeating!!!

8 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:23:12 PM by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer
But Father Tom Reese, ... "If someone is called to the priesthood by God but denied it by church officials, then it is not a violation of a human right, it is a violation of a divine right--the right of God to call whomever he chooses to the priesthood," he said.

Reese always did have a problem with discernment and obedience.

9 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:25:49 PM by A.A. Cunningham
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To: NYer
"If someone is called to the priesthood by God but denied it by church officials, then it is not a violation of a human right, it is a violation of a divine right--the right of God to call whomever he chooses to the priesthood," he said.

What if "God calls" a child molester to the priesthood?

10 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:26:45 PM by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: NYer
We don't need no freaking gay clergy.


11 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:29:30 PM by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: NYer
"The Church will not survive without its gay clergy."

It can and it will. If they suddenly feel 'oppressed', they can go to the Episcopal Church where Bishop Vicki Gene Robinson will throw out the welcome mat.

12 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:29:57 PM by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer
Jason Berry, a journalist who has covered priestly sexual abuse scandals since 1984, said the Vatican action was clearly prompted by the crisis and by the fact that most U.S. cases have involved priests and teenage boys. "The priesthood is a huge closet. We all know that from the research that's been done," he said. He said that the Vatican is avoiding the central question of "Why can't the priesthood attract stable heterosexuals?" The answer, he said, is the ban on married men as priests.

Disagree. The problem is that 1) priests don't recruit and 2) too many priests are perceived to be unmanly.

13 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:31:08 PM by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Rodney King
What if "God calls" a child molester to the priesthood?

More likely such a discernment has resulted from bad bishops who encouraged these men to become priests. The cleanup has begun!

14 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:34:44 PM by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer

Pope Benedict XVI blesses pilgrims during his weekly general audience in St. Peter's Square at the Vatican. Pope Benedict XVI has signed an edict banning anyone with homosexual tendencies from the Roman Catholic priesthood, Church sources said.(AFP/Vincenzo Pinto)

Thank you, Holy Father!

15 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:39:17 PM by NYer (“Socialism is the religion people get when they lose their religion")
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To: NYer

I wonder how horrified they really are. In reality this document takes a more liberal position towards homosexual priests than the current policy. By ignoring the existing policy they got a concession. Guess what they will do next?


16 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:42:40 PM by nickcarraway (I'm Only Alive, Because a Judge Hasn't Ruled I Should Die...)
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To: NYer
"It raises the bar so high that it would be difficult to imagine gay men feeling encouraged to pursue a life in the priesthood," he added.

That's precisely the idea! (I thought it was worth repeating too.)

17 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:43:19 PM by pgkdan
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To: NYer
A prominent gay priest, speaking anonymously, said the dozen homosexual clergy he has spoken with are "horrified" by the document.

I say we start by saying goodbye to ALL self identified gay priests. All priests who pander to groups like Dignity and the Rainbow Sash Coalition. There's also a bunch of published photos of Priests marching in gay pride parades, attending gay conventions and the like...they should all be forced out ASAP.

18 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:46:30 PM by pgkdan
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To: NYer
Those with only "transitory" homosexual tendencies must be celibate three years before being ordained as deacons, the step before priesthood.

No, it does not say that they must be celibate for three years but that their tendencies were only transitory and that they have overcome them for three years. Big difference.

Some observers said it will be difficult to define what is meant by "deeply rooted" or "transitory" tendencies.

While taken in isolation some might argue over the meaning of "deeply rooted", the meaning of "transitory" is quite clear. When we place these two in opposition the meaning of "deeply rooted" also becomes clear: permanent vs. temporary or passing. This will be the heart of much misreporting and attempts to find some wiggle room. Such attempts must be swatted down as soon as they appear

The priest said that even emotionally mature gay men...

A contradiction in terms.

...who are committed to practicing celibacy "will be completely discouraged" from applying, and gays already in the priesthood will be demoralized. Some clerics may even quit, he said.

One can only hope.

He said that the Vatican is avoiding the central question of "Why can't the priesthood attract stable heterosexuals?"

First, the majority of priests are heterosexual. Second, see the quote from Father Neuhaus:

The Rev. Richard John Neuhaus of First Things magazine said there is reason to believe that the decree will lead to a significant increase in candidates, because many would-be priests have been turned off by "the presence, and sometimes dominance, of a gay culture" in seminaries.
My guess is that that pro-homosexual crowd is afraid not because they think that Father Neuhaus is wrong but because they think that he is right. If enforced, this policy will cut off the homosexual coup similar to that in the Episcopalian Church.
19 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:47:57 PM by Petrosius
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Also unaffected by the example of the Episcopal Church, where priests are indeed allowed to marry. In fact, a couple of them married each other a few months ago...


20 posted on 11/23/2005, 8:48:45 PM by livius
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