Posted on 11/29/2005 6:40:10 AM PST by murphE
Every soul that meets death in a state of mortal sin will be damned for eternity
Father Joseph Pfeiffer's sermon recorded on the first Sunday of Advent at St. Michael the Archangel's Roman Catholic Church in Farmingville, NY.
As I said, "DON"T WAIT till its too late and you meet God -you and all mankind WILL MEET HIM..and He says," DEPART FROM ME YE CURSED into the EVERLASTING FIRE-! THATS in the Bible.
Then you best heed your advice.
Not too many going by peoples' actions. I certainly never heard a sermon on the Four Last Things at my former parish. And sadly, even those of us who do know about these things don't always behave like we do, so we need to be reminded - often.
Just because people don't want to conform to your viewpoint of God, Hell, religion doesn't mean they should.
Sure it does. Who should not conform to the concept that 2+2=4?
If you consider that an attack, so be it.
What would you call, Quote:"Uh-huh. Well, some of us believe that to be a heaping pile of fertilizer."? Is that an invitation to a philosophical/theological discussion?
Just because people don't want to conform to your viewpoint of God, Hell, religion doesn't mean they should.
Sure it does. Who should not conform to the concept that 2+2=4?
If you consider that an attack, so be it.
What would you call, Quote:"Uh-huh. Well, some of us believe that to be a heaping pile of fertilizer."? Is that an invitation to a philosophical/theological discussion?
LOL! Are you also believing that only certain Christians will go to heaven, and that other such disciplines are damned? Like catholics, baptists, lutherans, evangelicals, etc?
I guess all King James bibles aren't created equal, then:
Matt 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matt 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matt 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 18:8
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Rev 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:18
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Please find those passages where it says slavery is abhorrant.
There are none. Your point?
The Bible says men should not eat certain foods (pork for example). Yet men have learned over the years to properly treat such foods to prevent disease, to prepare and eat it safely.
Remember, Hell was previously Hadees, and before that Sheol. Over the years, and the bible was translated from language to language to language, and words and meanings were not always accurate. It went from a state of "absence of God" to a physical place of fire and torture.
My point is, we have learned over the years men have found that the Bible is not 100% correct. It can be wrong. And if it can be wrong about slavery, about eating certain foods, about where and how plants shall be grown on farms, etc then it can also be wrong about hell (which may be in the afterlife and only 1 man has returned from death and he didn't stop in that particular place). I have no quarrel with boundaries that have been set for us to live our lives, but I do have doubts about a place of hellfire for men who live good lives but don't believe every word in the Bible.
You say that only one person has ever returned from the dead. On what basis do you make that claim? The bible? Remember, you claim that it is full of errors. If someone made up hell, they could also have made up heaven. Or the resurrection. Or salvation. Or Jesus. It could all be a sham.
You can't pick and choose the scripture you will believe on the basis of what you think is "right" or "wrong".
I also have no doubt that as time passed, and the Gospels were written and translated, that some meanings were slightly altered not out of deliberation but out of the errors of the translators themselves.
And I have no doubt that as the Church itself grew, the gospels were altered yet again, perhaps to have more control of the people, or perhaps to make a more consistent message throughout the 2nd Testament. Remember, the Council of Nicea did edit the Bible, threw out some books of Gospels.
You infer I should believe it all or ignore it all as a sham. I say I can believe the basic message, love Christ as I love myself and my family, and question the Bible as a part of the discovery of God's world.
And I will not pick and choose scripture basis of what you think is "right" or "wrong". Because you are as fallible as I.
You imply that I think myself to be infalliable. I do not, not in the least. But I DO believe that the Bible is.
I didn't say it's not trustworthy. I said some aspects of it were likely altered from original meanings thru translations, through editing, and thru men. But if you are saying that the message remains absolutely accurate throughout from the moment word was put to paper over the last 2000 years, then you are welcome to that.
We just disagree.
Thank you for giving a reasoned post. If I may butt in, the Church teaches this:
The Bible is a complex set of books, difficult to read and understand. It should be read as instructed by the Church, and in the light of the overall teaching of the Church. Otherwise, puzzlements like yours over slavery, pork or Hell will be overwhelming and little or nothing good will come of your reading. Unfortunately, Protestantism encourages indiscriminate and independent reading of the Bible, and many branches of Protestantism tend to prefer literalist interpretations even when it is clear from the context that a literal interpretation is not appropriate, and thus they exacerbate the confusion. The result often is the conclusion that you have reached, that Bible is approximate or Hell should not be a serious concern for all men. This is a loss of Christian faith in general, not only a loss of Catholic faith. While I can only speak as Catholic, please do not take this as an attempt to convert you to Catholicism; I am attempting to convert you to Christianity.
What are the rules of reading the Bible? Like any text, divinely inspired or not, it should be read with knowledge of the context and the culture of the man who wrote a particular book. We need to look at the intended audience and the reason it is written. Besides universal teaching of Man in relation to God and to other men, the Bible contains engineering, medical or agricultural advice, highly metaphorical poetry, historical and genealogical accounts, and what not. It is natural that habits, customs and knowledge of the day will enter the narratives, and they will not be always sound social practice, science or engineering. This does not make the Bible approximate, -- without these narrative, poetic or metaphorical components it would not serve its purpose and so it would not be inerrant!
Second rule is that when the intended meaning is in doubt, one need to check how the intended audience of the day understood the passage. This is why the Catholics and the Orthodox insist on testing the understanding with the early Church fathers and oral tradition. For example, the early Church clearly believed in Hell as a real danger for many -- not just for criminally guilty -- so if you interpret biblical passages differently than that, you are not interpreting them right.
Thirdly, the Old Testament must be read in the light of the New Testament. In particular, we see Christ teaching us to read the Jewish law critically and to use reason. He repeats parts of the Jewish law making it our own, but He does not repeat all of it, and He often reinterprets the Jewish law differently even when he seems to approve of it. Later, the apostles decide to rescind parts of the Jewish law that deals with diet and ceremony. This does not point to the errancy of the Bible, merely to the fact that God gave some of His law to the Jews, and other parts of it to us Christians, and some laws pertain to certain historical epochs, while others hold for all eternity.
A few specific concerns you mention. Pork was prohibited to Jews alone, The Jewish rabbis always interpreted the prohibition not as a pragmatic one, to do with properties of meats, but as one teaching people that God's law is to be obeyed irrespective of reason. This is why Jews don't eat pork today, even though it is perfectly safe medically speaking. The dietetic laws of Moses were lifted by the Early Church because we are under new covenant and the old one simply does not apply. It was not lifted because the Apostles invented refrigeration.
Slavery is either mentioned as a fact of life in the scripture, or charity to the slaves (along with obedience to the civil laws) is urged. Or it is used metaphorically to illustrate the fact that to God we are not unlike slaves. If you have a specific passage that you think condones slavery expressly, show it to me.
Hell is punishment for sin, and the cardinal sin, as is clear from the Fall of Adam story, is disobedience to God. But Christ asks us positively very difficult things, -- to be like Him, to follow Him disregarding all else, and to give our property and lives to others. So, one who merely lives a good life, -- does not steal or murder, -- cannot be assured of salvation. Here the Protestant beliefs differ somewhat, as they would say that one who has professed faith in Christ can be assured of salvation, and we say that while this is so, works of obedience and charity need to prove that faith, and so presumption of being saved is sinful in itself. But no Christian tradition teaches that good life without faith is sifficient to avoid Hell.
Sad answer-Hell's no joke-
Well, I guess we'll all find out for sure after we've shuffled off this mortal coil.
First off, I believe in Christ, and I have no doubt he was sent here. I have no doubt he spoke on behalf of God to give us guidance and a path to follow.
He spoke on behalf of God? Just what is that supposed to mean? I smell Arianism repackaged in post-Tielhardian New Age/ College/ "ME-ism". I'm sensing someone has been unduly influenced by the dominated by liberalism university system. You really need to read some Chesterton or Aquinas and get back to reality.
I don't need to find out..I already KNOW there is a dreadful,unescapable place.
As a Catholic Priest told one ,who also did not believe in Hell..."repeat -I may die this very night and go to Hell forever"..over and over...within that hour the man made his confession and BELIEVED! He did not wish to spead eternity,in a dark,place of stench of fire,torment,devils away from God ..till the end of time..
Well, good for you.
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