Pope authorizes plenary indulgences marking Vatican II anniversary

Catholic News Service ^ | 11/29/05 | Carol Glatz

[PetroniusMaximus]

"punishment due original sin (loss of heaven) is remitted. "

"And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross."


"... having forgiven us all our trespasses..."

"... all..."

"We still get sick, we still get old, we still have to die "

If there were any reality to plenary indulgences then shouldn't practicing Catholics see these punishments ameliorated?

[Campion]

If there were any reality to plenary indulgences then shouldn't practicing Catholics see these punishments ameliorated?

If there were any reality to your claim that all punishment for sin was removed at the Cross, shouldn't practicing Protestants see them ameliorated?

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Nonsense. If you buy me a new Cadillac as a gift, and I tidy up your yard when you're on vacation out of gratitude, have I paid for the Cadillac? Is it no longer a gift?"

If I TAKE IT AWAY because you failed to tidy up it is no longer a free gift.


"if you insist that your son pay for the window he broke, is your forgiveness no longer a gracious gift?"

Hebrews 9:22
"Without shedding of blood is no remission."



"God will work miracles if you'll only let him out of your manmade Reformed theological box."

While I appreciate your sentiment, I'm not an adherant of Reformed theology strictly. What I know about God comes primarily from reading the Bible.

[Nihil Obstat]

"I am not a Catholic (although one has honored me by calling me an "honorary Catholic"), but I am very glad to read articles like this. If sincere Catholics seriously practice their religious duties, the whole world benefits. Sincere prayer to God and the saints is never in vain, from whichever direction it comes."

Thank you and God bless you! If people don't want to go to church on December 8th that is fine. They can stay at home and poop all over their own thread.

[murphE]

If there were any reality to plenary indulgences then shouldn't practicing Catholics see these punishments ameliorated?

Nope, plenary indulgences only cover the temporal punishment due actual sin, we still must suffer the pains of death. If, by your logic "all" means eternal as well as temporal punishments, why are you still going to have to suffer death?

However, since the Blessed Mother was preserved from ever having original sin, through a singular grace bestowed on her by God in anticipation of the superabundant graces merited by Our Lord's suffering and crucifixion, Our Blessed Mother did not suffer the pains of death, or bodily corruption afterward. Our Lady was Assumed body and soul into heaven at the end of her earthly life.

[murphE]

I am not a Catholic...

"Yet", you are not Catholic "yet". ;-D

[PetroniusMaximus]

" If there were any reality to your claim that all punishment for sin was removed at the Cross, ..."

My friend, the reality of my "claim" is Scripture.

"And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross."



"...shouldn't practicing Protestants see them ameliorated?"


They certainly should, and certainly will. Paul has written down the timetable...

Rom 8

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.



Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

[Uri’el-2012]

Your other post is not applicable to the discussion, if you had read all of the other posts you might see that, you may not accept it, but you would know we are referring to different things.

Excuse me for asking about your belief.

Why do you follow the word of man and not the Word of G-d?

Psalm 146:1 Praise the LORD. [Hebrew: Hallelu Yah; also in verse 10] Praise the LORD, O my soul.

Psalm 146:2 I will praise the LORD all my life; I will sing praise to my God as long as I live.

Psalm 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.

b'shem Y'shua

[PetroniusMaximus]

"Judgment comes for us. "

That is indisputable.


"Though Christ paid our debt on the cross, we can still lose Heaven through the sins we commit; "

The very verses you site refutes your contention. Look...

"For the time is, that judgment should begin at the house of God. And if at first at us, what shall be the end of them that believe not the gospel of God?"

Look at the contrast: "And if at first at us, what shall be the end of them that believe not the gospel of God"

In other words, Judgment is coming, if it is going to be rough for the believers, imagine how rough it will be fro the unbelievers.

Those who "believe not the gospel of God" are getting the worst - hell. The believers, by contrast, will undergo judgment and perhaps even be "barely saved" but will not suffer the same fate as the unbeliever.

[Campion]

My friend, the reality of my "claim" is Scripture.

A very selective and one-sided use of Scripture, my friend.

"And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross."

Yes. And does that say that sin has no consequences left for Christians?

Now I'd like to ask you a question. In 1 Cor 3, we read:

12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Question: Who are the people who "suffer loss," yet "will be saved, yet so as through fire"? Why is there "fire" left, in view of the Cross?

And another question. Hebrews 12:29 says "For our God is a consuming fire."

Question: What in us does the "consuming fire" of God consume as we draw near to him?

[Campion]

Judgment is coming, if it is going to be rough for the believers

But it can't be. All of the penalty of our sins, including "rough judgment," was removed at the Cross. You insist that Scripture says so, so I have to insist that you're either wrong, or or you're contradicting Scripture.

[PetroniusMaximus]

" Yes. And does that say that sin has no consequences left for Christians?"

No, look...

Romans 6:12
"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

There's no reason to warn against something that's not a possibility. But it is a possibility - hence the admonition.



"Question: Who are the people who "suffer loss," yet "will be saved, yet so as through fire"? Why is there "fire" left, in view of the Cross?"

The fire - you will notice - burns up the Christian's unworthy works (wood, hay, stubble) but not the Christian.

There will be a rough judgment for multitudes of Christians - Christians who have not lived is such a manner as to bring glory to God.

When they appear before the Judgment seat of Christ they will be ashamed of themselves (see 1 John 2:28). The will be ashamed that they lived in an unworthy or unfaithful manner (see 2 Tim 2:13).

They will be ashamed that, appearing before the Lord who suffered such great agony for them, they find they have nothing to lay at his feet (see Rev 4:10). They will find most all of their lives have been burnt up under the fiery gaze of God, yet, as Paul teaches, they themselves will be saved.




"Question: What in us does the "consuming fire" of God consume as we draw near to him?"

Peter said:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith--more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire -- may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

[murphE]

Excuse me for asking about your belief.

You wouldn't need to be excused if that's what you did, but it isn't. You chimed in, in the middle of a discussion about points that had already been addressed. If you're going to chime in fine, but you should at least try to keep up with what has already transpired on the thread.

Why do you follow the word of man and not the Word of G-d?

Straw man. So I'll answer it with another question. Why do you believe the bible to be the Word of God, if that is in fact what you are referring to.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"If it is indisputable that judgment comes, what is the use of it if you presume only a good outcome?"

The I Cor 3 verse to which Campion has directed our attention is a good example of someone experiencing a very rough judgment - yet still being saved.

[Dajjal]

good news bump

Sorry, I don't see the Church (and the world) suffering now 40 years of the effects of Vatican Two as a cause for celebration.

... indulgences to encourage the faithful to carry out the council's teachings on peace, justice and charity ....

Especially as the object of these indulgences is to further the "implementation" of V-2's notions of "peace, justice and charity" -- which have required such massive destruction of traditions in liturgy, doctrine, vocations, etc.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"From Hebrews 6:"

Not meaning to be dense here, but can you summarize for me the point you derive from the posted passage?