Posted on 11/29/2005 9:32:31 PM PST by murphE
And you think only Catholics are persecuted for righteousness sake? Ok.....
I ask this respectfully and sincerely...
Is then sin being forgiven like an underage kid caught drinking who is pardoned from being found guilty if he will do community service...the "guilt" is removed--he is being found not guilty, but the obligation to repair the offense is incurred in doing the community service...
Where is this concept clearly put forth in Scripture?
I know we are told we are found not guilty because of Christ's sacrifice but I don't recall seeing the concept of us having to perform obligatory 'things' to make the forgiveness of sin "complete"...
I look forward to your reply...
In Christ
Let's just say that I have much in common with Catholics, and there is a large overlap of common belief and even similarity of practice!
Nope. I don't and won't get into a theological argument. Period. Every bit of teaching that would enlighten you if you were just wanting a question answered has been posted on this thread already. I refuse to argue with people who merely want to hijack catholic discussions.
John. 1:1 In the beginning was the Word,.
and the Word was with God,.
and the Word was God..
John. 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
b'shem Y'shua
I don't understand your answer.
b'shem Y'shua
You can quote all the scripture you want, so can demons, that doesn't explain to me why you believe the bible to be the Word of God, or that you have the slightest understanding of what you are quoting.
I pray, Abba, Father,
Creator of the universe,
send your Ruach haKodesh
to remove the scales from the eyes of MurphE
Warm his heart and call him to you.
May he come to know Your Son, the Word of G-d.
I ask these things in the
Holy Name of Your Son
The Word of G-d:
Y’shua haMashiach
I apologize if you felt I was trying to "hi-jack" your thread...that never was my intent...I simply want to try to understand how I can be continually be told one thing then see a 180 degree difference from the Vatican itself...
You don't have to reply, I'll take my question to others...
God's Blessings to you...
Greetings jo kus...Respectfully, perhaps you can answer a few questions I have from this article...indeed you have told me that RCC'r's do not pray to Mary...then I saw this from the Vatican itself:
..."may obtain a Plenary Indulgence in their own homes, or wherever they may be, if, with the soul completely removed from any form of sin, and with the intention of observing the aforesaid conditions as soon as possible, they unite themselves in spirit and in desire to the Supreme Pontiff's intentions in prayer to Mary Immaculate, and recite the Our Father and the Creed."
1.Why would a Vatican document ask it followers to "unite themselves in spirit and in desire to the Supreme Pontiff's intentions in PRAYER to MARY IMMACULATE and recite the Our Father and The Creed." I guess I want to know which is it? Do you pray to Mary or not...according to this Papal decree you actually do or maybe a better way of saying it is you should...
2. How can the Pope know if "the soul completely removed from any form of sin, and with the intention of observing the aforesaid conditions as soon as possible" when this is done in private and frankly if it is done in person to the Pope himself. If this is a requirement of receiving the indulgence, then it seems that the Pope is claiming to do what only God can do--seeing into the hearts of man. Only God knows the hearts of men and only He knows if we are free of sin, which in all honesty is a rare feat indeed for us sinful creatures.
I look forward to your reply...God's Blessings to you...
In Christ...
First, as always, I appreciate your graciousness in asking me a question. It shows me that you are sincere in wanting to understand "why do Catholics do that", rather than just to argue.
As to "praying to". It is a matter of semantics, I think. Strictly speaking, everything goes to the Father through the Son. I can imagine the confusion of Protestants when they see "pray to Mary"! But "pray" doesn't necessarily mean "to worship". It also means "to ask". And I think this is what the Pope means. We are to ask the Virgin Mary to intercede for us, just as she interceded at the Wedding of Cana. We believe she is in a special position regarding her Son, Jesus won't refuse her mother - so we "feel". Techinically speaking, only God is deserving of worship. Mary receives praise and honor. Mary can ask her Son for favors for us. But "praying to", in this case, doesn't change the teachings of the Church.
If this is a requirement of receiving the indulgence, then it seems that the Pope is claiming to do what only God can do--seeing into the hearts of man. Only God knows the hearts of men and only He knows if we are free of sin, which in all honesty is a rare feat indeed for us sinful creatures.
Again, a good, honest question. The Church has requirements for an indulgence to be effective. We cannot "obtain" an indulgence or relief from sin by merely exterior fulfilment. Paul is clear about OBLIGATING God. We cannot do it. But in love, the same action done can have effect - as God demands repentance and a loving heart. Thus, if we go through the motions of securing an indulgence, it is a "work" - works cannot save! But if done from the heart out of love and repentance, the Pope is merely teaching what the Gospel teaches (and will teach tommorrow at Mass - Mark 1:1-8 REPENT!), and utilizing his power to bind and loosen, under those conditions. Here is what the Cardinal says. Note my highlights:
"Cardinal Stafford said that to obtain the special Dec. 8 feast day indulgences one must fulfill the normal requirements set by the church for all plenary indulgences, which include that within a reasonably short period of time the person goes to confession, receives the Eucharist and prays for the intentions of the pope, all in a spirit of total detachment from the attraction of sin."
I hope this helps - it is probably not a full answer - please forgive me if it doesn't address the question fully or adds more questions.
Brother in Christ
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