Posted on 12/09/2005 11:58:25 PM PST by HarleyD
Lutheranism was growing strong in the 1500's. In response to this, the Roman Catholic church convened a council in November of 1544 in an attempt to counter the doctrines raised and supported by the Reformers. The official opening of the council was on Dec. 13, 1545 and was closed on Dec. 14, 1563. The council delivered many statements on various subjects. These Canons have never been denied by the Roman Catholic Church.
Following are several of the doctrinal statements made on Justification at the council of Trent. After each Canon are scriptures that contradict that Canon. These scriptures are linked to the KJV on CARM so you can click on them and read them in context.
Finally, you will see the word "anathema" used many times by the Council. This means that those who disagree with the doctrines of this Council are cursed. In Gal. 1:8-9, the word "anathema" is used. The curse must come from God. Therefore, we conclude that according to Roman Catholicism, anyone who disagrees with the following Canons are cursed of God. The Roman Catholic church excommunicates those under anathema. In other words, excommunication means being outside the Christian church. Being outside the church means you are not saved.
In spite of what Catholicism states, the Bible speaks differently. Following each Canon is a list of appropriate scriptures countering the Catholic position.
CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
B. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," (Rom. 3:24). C. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28). D. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3). E. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1). F. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8). G. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost," (Titus 3:5). A. "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin," (Rom. 3:20).
CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ...let him be accursed"
...
A. "This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned."
Ah, that would be me and mine, according to Trent and all subsequent Popes and current church doctrine who and which have affirmed Trent's curses to this very day.
We try to deal in facts.
A. "This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned."
That's not a quotation from the council.
Ah, that would be me and mine, according to Trent and all subsequent Popes and current church doctrine who and which have affirmed Trent's curses to this very day.
It's nice to make up facts like that in order to keep the hostilities alive, but the facts are these:
What is the gospel to you ?
The four canonical gospels, of St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, and St. John.
Glad to see you agree with the Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, canon #1.
The entire purpose of Trent was not to build sound doctrine it was to repudiate the man that showed the emperor had no clothes
SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).
SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).
SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the Catholic doctrine of justification as set forth by the holy council in the present decree, derogates in some respect from the glory of God or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, and does not rather illustrate the truth of our faith and no less the glory of God and of Christ Jesus, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 33).
The problem is that church not only cursed Luther, but Christ and the other authors of scripture
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment::9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls. Faith and belief are the flip sides of the same coin
BTW
The use of "alone" in Romans 3 has a history that preceeds Luther. Luther made in his defense of the added adverb were that it was demanded by the context and that sola was used in the theological tradition before him. Translations prior to Luther used the terminology of faith alone with respect to Romans 3:28. The Nuremberg Bible of 1483 had "allein durch den glauben," while the Italian Bibles of Geneva in 1476 and even 1538 had "per sola fide."
Were the gospels written and canonized when these words were penned? (and the other 80+ times the word appears in the NT )
Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
Act 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
The word gospel means GOOD NEWS what was the gospel that Jesus taught and that the apostles preached? What is the GOOD NEWS ?
I understand that the gospels were written and canonized after the living Gospel was preached, but I was talking about Luther ignoring the written gospels as he developed his theories.
That is the politically correct answer, but is it the one INTENDED by the council at Trent?
1Cr 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
There was no church from which to be "excommunicated " when these words were penned
From the Greek
1) a thing set up or laid by in order to be kept
a) specifically, an offering resulting from a vow, which after being consecrated to a god was hung upon the walls or columns of the temple, or put in some other conspicuous place
2) a thing devoted to God without hope of being redeemed, and if an animal, to be slain; therefore a person or thing doomed to destruction
a) a curse
b) a man accursed, devoted to the direst of woes
They knew EXACTLY what they were writing and so do we.
At least I can hope this means you accept the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
Merry Christmas.
So then the Gospel existed before the Gospels were written, so what is the Gospel? What is the "good news" that is contained in the Gospel and the other NT scripture?
BTW Luther read through the scriptures several times a year I believe, how often have you read through them?
Thanks for the recommendation. Is it on DVD yet?
I think Pope Benedict shares some of your admiration for Luther. I don't know a whole lot about him myself, other than the standard stuff.
It is my understanding though, that Luther and the Church were about to come to some sort of agreement when the Curia muddied up the waters by either reneging (sp?) on a point of agreement or trying to get a fast one by him.
In any case, Lord Acton's phrase surely comes to mind.
Of course there was.
However, the term took on a specific, technical meaning long after St. Paul wrote. By Tridentine times, there was a formal liturgy for an "anathema". Ever heard the phrase, "bell, book, and candle"?
They knew EXACTLY what they were writing and so do we.
In other words, "Campion, you've been a Catholic since you were six weeks old, and a Catholic apologist for the last twelve years. You've read Ott, and you've read the letter of the Holy Office in Re Father Feeney, but that doesn't matter, because I know what Trent meant, and you don't."
Thanks for your confidence in me. Happily, I'm quite confident that I know my religion better than you do, but I'm sorry that Protestants so frequently feel compelled to misrepresent it to score points.
My contention is that Luther's theories do not mesh very well with some words of Christ. Please see my post #20. I know that Luther in fact read the gospels, but apparently he did not retain their content. It is remarkable that all scripture references in support of Luther that I get, come from a few passages in Galatians and Romans, which confirms my belief that the gospels remain ignored by the Reformers, or if not ignored entirely then spun beyond all recognition to fit their speculative theology.
No, it means that even Mary could do nothing pleasing to God, He was however pleased with HIS work IN her.
Men can please other men, but God is only pleased with HIS WORK in them .
Hbr 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
He is pleased when we do the works he has foreordained for us to do . That is working His will in you
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
God was pleased with His work in Mary.
Look to the source of the blessedness not the recipient for praise and glory
I have read the scripture, the very word of God and the church chose that word very carefully, they wished luther in hell. But when those men look around they will not see him there
Do you have a problem verbalizing what the gospel is ? What is the gospel? What is the "good news" that Jesus preached?
The topic I prefer to stay on is, did Luther understand the four written gospels. Some other day we can discuss the unwritten Gospel.
I don't care what they wished, and that isn't the issue.
Dr. E brought up the standard Protestant canard that Trent damns him and his family, and I refuted it.
I would be happy to have a beer with Luther in heaven as one good German to another; but in heaven, there is no beer, that's why we drink it here.
But the gospel IS written, it is contained fully in the NT
I think that when you can tell us what gospel is then you can then accuse Luther of not knowing it, until then you have no credibility to make that accusation .
Well then please do not be an apologist for the hearts full of hate and retribution that penned them
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