A rolled-away stone gathers Moss: from Judaism to Catholicism

Envoy ^ | Tim Drake

[Invincibly Ignorant]

lol. If it makes you feel better, don't actually read what I said, just zero in on the spelling error. Good therapy.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Dang. Catholics can spell? I'd better cross the Tiber quickly.

[Uri’el-2012]

XS>Yes I am Messianic. I attend Roeh Israel in Denver.
NY>What were you before that?

40 posted on 01/01/2006 4:38:46 PM MST by NYer

I attended a nondenominational
"Dallas Theological" lead church for 10 years prior.

But most of my beliefs come from reading
the Holy Word of G-d with a teacher and
reference material for at least an hour a day.

I have used this forum for the last six years
to answer and research answers for others.

b'shem Y'shua

[magisterium]

It appears that he just might be becoming a regular at the noon Tridentine indult Mass at Holy Trinity Church in Boston. I had the honor, as an acolyte, to have held the paten while Mr. Schoeman received the Eucharist at our midnight Christmas Mass. This marks the third time he has been to our church since he gave a talk on his book there a couple of months ago. Y'all might want to come on over and see if he's around! Even if he isn't, you might at least find that the old Mass is to your liking...

[Dark Skies]

I am not near Boston...but I am there in spirit. God bless you and yours this coming year...

I am sure the Mass would be to my liking...

[jo kus]

I am curious. Have you read any books written by Jews who note the very strong connection between Christianity and Judaism? For example, "In the Shadow of the Temple", by Oskar Skarsaune? Such scholarly writings seem to realize that even such things as the Trinity has its roots originally in Jewish Wisdom thought.

Regards

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Sure I've read a few books, not the particular one you mentioned, by a minority of Jews whose writings "seem" to speculate mulitiple gods. I find them usually to be Kabbalistic exercises. You seem all too eager to interpret cherry picked Jewish authors as lending credibility to trinitarian/multiple god doctrines. Be that as it may, I acknowledge that there exist a small number of Jews that accept trinitarianism as an acceptable form of monotheism. (I don't, hence multiple gods and trinitarianism in the same sentence)

Just as a small number, after the destruction of the second temple and on into the 1st century (apprx 1/6th of Jews), became frustrated and impatient in their messianism and were all too willing to accept the concept of a "spiritual" Messiah even though that "alledged" Messiah didn't fulfill any of the "physical" Messianic expectations such as the land or bringing immediate peace to the world. I would assume none of your adopted Jewish authors would believe these expectations were met either.

Just so you're aware, I could cherry pick Catholic authors all day long that do not necessarily line up with your positions on various topics either. Cherry picked Jewish authors speak for all Jews as much as you speak for all Catholics. Thank you, I'm finished responding to your supercessiont (I spelled it right this time) post.

[Tax-chick]

Bless your heart! I hope the Tooth Ferry brings you a nice sense of humor for Lee-Jackson Day this year.

[AlaninSA]

You should - and we're also right on theology.

[sitetest]

Dear Invincibly Ignorant.

"Thank you, I'm finished responding to your supercessiont (I spelled it right this time) post."

Almost.

Wanna try again??

;-)


sitetest

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Dang I need to slow down. :-)

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Bless your heart! I hope the Tooth Ferry brings you a nice sense of humor for Lee-Jackson Day this year.

And I hope your persecution complex leaves you in 2006. This is a friggin internet chatroom. Quit acting like you've shed blood in the name of your god.

[jo kus]

I acknowledge that there exist a small number of Jews that accept trinitarianism as an acceptable form of monotheism

I didn't say anything about Jews being trinitarian. I said that Jewish Wisdom thought before and after the time of Christ COULD be quite easily developed where one could "hypostatize" or attribute God's Wisdom and God's Spirit into a Person. I had always thougth that it was Hellenistic thought that in particular brought out the trinitarian thought to its conclusion. That may be so, but I hadn't realized that Jewish Wisdom thought paved the way to make this connection to its fullest.

The roots of Christology lies in Jewish roots. If we ask "what thing or person - which "x" - is playing an important role in Judaism in saying things like "God created the world through 'x'" then the answer is obvious and easy to find in the extant sources. In Jewish writings of the Second Temple period, there is one such "x": The Wisdom of God.

"The Lord BY WISDOM founded the earth" Prov 3:19

"{Wisdom speaking} When God assigned to the sea its limit...when he marked out the foundations of the earth, THEN I WAS BESIDE HIM, LIKE A MASTER WORKER" Prov 8:29-30

"She (wisdom) is an initiate in the knowledge of God, an ASSOCIATE IN HIS WORKS" Wisdom of Solomon 8:4

BY YOUR WISDOM you have formed humankind" Wisdom of Solomon 9:2

The most striking parallel come in the self-praise of Wisdom in Sirach 24. This also has the idea of Wisdom being present with God when He created the world - but then an important idea is added: Wisdom began to SEEK A PLACE TO DWELL ON EARTH (to become incarnate, one could say).

"in the holy tent I ministered before him, and so I was established in Zion (Sir 24:8-10). This is the exact same terminology (pitching your tent) as "The Word became flesh and pitched his tent among us" (John 1:14). The Sirach background becomes clear why the metaphor of a tent is used in John 1:14; the glory and name of God dwelling in the tabernacle/temple explains the tent imagery.

Conclusion: The Christology of the NT passages are Jewish Wisdom Christology. Jesus HIMSELF became God's Wisdom in the Flesh. He was Wisdom Incarnate, the Word made flesh. Thus, the makings of the Trinity can be found in the Old Testament. This is not surprising, given that the Apostles' background and heritage was Jewish, as was Jesus. ALL Christians should study their Jewish heritage. It helps to bring out our Christianity that much more.

Regards

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Conclusion: The Christology of the NT passages are Jewish Wisdom Christology. Jesus HIMSELF became God's Wisdom in the Flesh. He was Wisdom Incarnate, the Word made flesh. Thus, the makings of the Trinity can be found in the Old Testament. This is not surprising, given that the Apostles' background and heritage was Jewish, as was Jesus. ALL Christians should study their Jewish heritage. It helps to bring out our Christianity that much more.

As a result of your supercessionist thought processes you attribute to all Jews concepts that, in reality, were held by a minority. Just about all of what you attibute as being "Jewish Wisdom" is contained mostly in inter-testamental and non-canonized apocryphal writings. Most Jews didn't seem to think they ought to be included in the Tanakh. Your interpretation of particular "wisdom" scriptures from Proverbs are exactly that, private interpretation. I didn't know you were ok with Sola Scriptura?

Be that as it may, most of us have all witnessed your aspirations for having to be crowned Mr. expert on every religious subject imaginable. Didn't one of your "alledged" apostles describe that as "the knowledge that puffeth up"?

[Uri’el-2012]

.......... "in the holy tent I ministered before him, and so I was established in Zion (Sir 24:8-10). This is the exact same terminology (pitching your tent) as "The Word became flesh and pitched his tent among us" (John 1:14). The Sirach background becomes clear why the metaphor of a tent is used in John 1:14; the glory and name of God dwelling in the tabernacle/temple explains the tent imagery.........

53 posted on 01/02/2006 10:02:08 AM MST by jo kus

The Word became flesh and pitched his tent among us" (John 1:14).

Could this be a very big clue that Y'shua was born at the Feast of Tabernacles(Sukkot)?

The whole theme of Tabernacles was to celebrate Joy.
Sukkot is the seventh of the seven feasts in Torah
( Remember seven is for completeness)
Tabernacles is the only feast with specific instructions to Rejoice.

It is the only feast with an eight days ending in Shimini Atzeret.

Could this be His day of Circumcision?

This day, Shimini Atzeret, Y'shua celebrated in John 8:12 When He said :

John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world.
Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

This could refer back to His Conception on Chanukah, the Festival of Light, when He, the light, entered the world.

b'shem Y'shua

[jo kus]

Didn't one of your "alledged" apostles describe that as "the knowledge that puffeth up"?

I should have known better to address you, as this is the sort of communication you have exibited in the past. It is too bad you cannot refute my argument using logic or rational arguments and must stoop to name-calling - a sure sign that God does not dwell within you. It's too bad you cannot respect a fellow human being with a differing opinion. You are one of the very few on this board that I can say that about, and I have discussed issues with many Protestants.

As for "knowledge puffs up", I will try to be more humble in the future. I apologize to anyone who has taken my conversations in a manner as if I was a "know-it-all". I am not. I happen to have done a lot of reading on religious affairs - this does not make me an expert. I will let other people judge whether I serve a useful purpose on this board.

Regards to you just the same

[TomSmedley]

The water that Y'shua changed was not the water we think of, it was not drinking water. It was the water of purification as detailed in NUMBERS 19.

I've read the New Testament many times over the last 36 years, in varous English translations as well as in Greek, French, Afrikaans, Italian, and Esperanto. Yet I never noticed that factoid before -- which illuminates the whole scene in a new way, like a flashbulb going off in a room. What a gift you share, to carry into the new year! And many blessings upon your house in 2006.

[Uri’el-2012]

XS>The water that Y'shua changed was not the water we think of, it was not drinking water. It was the water of purification as detailed in NUMBERS 19.

I've read the New Testament many times over the last 36 years, in varous English translations as well as in Greek, French, Afrikaans, Italian, and Esperanto. Yet I never noticed that factoid before -- which illuminates the whole scene in a new way, like a flashbulb going off in a room. What a gift you share, to carry into the new year! And many blessings upon your house in 2006.

57 posted on 01/02/2006 11:00:29 AM MST by TomSmedley (Calvinist, optimist, home schooling dad, exuberant husband, technical writer)

This insight was originally obtained from Dr. Chuck Missler who can be found at Koinonia House.
Later I listened to Pastor/Rabbi Burt Yellin at Congregation Roeh Israel preach on the topic of the Red Heifer one Shabbat.

It certainly put 2000 years of myth and misunderstanding to rest as we look for Y'shua to return for us soon.

I take comfort in Will Psalm 106 Be Fulfilled in 2006?

b'shem Y'shua

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I should have known better to address you, as this is the sort of communication you have exibited in the past. It is too bad you cannot refute my argument using logic or rational arguments and must stoop to name-calling - a sure sign that God does not dwell within you.

Thank you Mr. Judge. At least you're consistent.

It's too bad you cannot respect a fellow human being with a differing opinion. You are one of the very few on this board that I can say that about, and I have discussed issues with many Protestants.

Coming from you I'll take that as a compliment.

As for "knowledge puffs up", I will try to be more humble in the future. I apologize to anyone who has taken my conversations in a manner as if I was a "know-it-all". I am not. I happen to have done a lot of reading on religious affairs - this does not make me an expert. I will let other people judge whether I serve a useful purpose on this board.

If you need more approval from others, fine. I was just passing along my opinion. I'll just leave you with the following. Let the Jews define what Jews are. After all they let Catholics define themselves.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

You might find this interesting about the ritual bath and wedding customs:
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/lifecycle/jewishlc/mikve.html