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To: SoothingDave
Just cause you don't understand it, doesn't mean it makes "absolutely no sense."

Look, I'm not bashing Catholismm here, I'm trying to grasp why Catholics look at scripture the way they do (with all this extraneous focus) and why they have this need to have others tell them what to think of scripture.

Does Good will equal salvation?

6 posted on 01/16/2006 6:43:39 AM PST by sirchtruth (Words Mean Things...)
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To: sirchtruth
I'm trying to grasp why Catholics look at scripture the way they do

Good luck with that.

8 posted on 01/16/2006 6:57:16 AM PST by newgeezer (fundamentalist, regarding the Constitution AND the Holy Bible. Words mean things!)
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To: sirchtruth
Does Good will equal salvation?

Yes, since Good Will is from God and is a function of grace. All men of Good Will will come to know the truth and will be saved. "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth, peace to men of good will." (St. Luke 2)

A different matter entirely is the salvific quality of being invincibly ignorant. Some apparently still labor under the misapprehension that ignorance = grace, and that ignorance of the divine religion excuses immoral personal behavior, thinking apparently the dumber and less knowledgable you are of the Lord, the closer you become to Him. "This is eternal life, to know thee, Father, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (St. John 17.3).

10 posted on 01/16/2006 7:10:07 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: sirchtruth
Look, I'm not bashing Catholismm here, I'm trying to grasp why Catholics look at scripture the way they do (with all this extraneous focus) and why they have this need to have others tell them what to think of scripture.

Does Good will equal salvation?

That's two HUGE questions, isn't it?

As to the first, I would say that the incredible multitude of denominations which claim to view the Bible as the word of God suggests that what is clear and indisputable to person A is complicated and questionable to person B, including John 3:16

Just as an exercise, "... all who believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" does not in itself necessarily imply that ONLY those who believe in Him can have everlasting life.

As to the second: I guess I don't see anywhere in the article cited anyone saying that Good Will equals salvation. Theology requires precise expression and careful, attentive reading and listening.

Here's a thought: Jesus says, "I have other sheep that ye know not of," (displaying a regrettable use of dangling prepositions, tsk, tsk). Now I know that a lot of Christians are only too eager to explain that He meant the Gentiles, and that therefore they DO in fact know of the sheep of whom Jesus says "ye know not of." Personally, I'm content to say that Jesus is right and I don't know of all His sheep.

11 posted on 01/16/2006 7:18:54 AM PST by Mad Dawg (Allahu Fubar! (with apologies to Sheik Yerbouty))
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To: sirchtruth
Look, I'm not bashing Catholismm here,

Sure.

I'm trying to grasp why Catholics look at scripture the way they do (with all this extraneous focus) and why they have this need to have others tell them what to think of scripture.

We simply don't believe one needs to wipe the slate clean with the birth of each new believer. We are allowed, nay, commanded, to share our understanding and wisdom.

Every time a scientist wishes to solve a problem, he does not begin with counting theory and then evolve arithmetic from the concept of numbers. He then doesn't go on to discover anew Calculus and Trigonometry and the other higher branches of knowledge.

Instead, he takes what has been discovered by those before him and works upon that foundation. Einstein called it "standing on the shoulders of giants."

I am unsure why anyone would want to reject summarily the thoughts and insights of the multiple generations of believers who came before us. I guess it's the difference between believing literally millions of minds over millennia can come to know what is true versus the hubris of believing one is sufficient in oneself to determine what is true.

SD

15 posted on 01/16/2006 8:47:55 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: sirchtruth

Look, I'm not bashing Catholismm here, I'm trying to grasp why Catholics look at scripture the way they do (with all this extraneous focus) and why they have this need to have others tell them what to think of scripture.>>>

Because we take seriously that Christ didn't freeze His thought in time but spread it through eternity via His chosen disciples.

Even the New Testament was 300 + year in the making, so "solo scriptura" is nonsense on its face.


21 posted on 01/16/2006 11:33:49 AM PST by Appalled but Not Surprised
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To: sirchtruth
why Catholics look at scripture the way they do

Christ gave us the entirety of the Holy Tradition and instructed His Church to keep it in perpetuity. The Church obeyed Him and produced the Holy Scripture, the Holy Liturgy, and works - verbal and iconographic -- of the Fathers. Our teacher is Christ Whose whole Person is the Word. It is not the scripture alone and in isolation of the entire written and unwritten Tradition, but that Tradition as a whole, which is sustained by the Church.

Sola Scriptura, -- the conceit that a certain part of the written tradition is sufficient and can be understood alone -- is a recent innovation that signaled a separation of a large number of people from the mystical body of Christ. Lost sheep without a shepherd, they cut themselves off the living Church, and gradually lost the understanding of the subset of the Canon that they once perhaps had. We do not want to repeat their plight.

27 posted on 01/16/2006 2:39:55 PM PST by annalex
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To: sirchtruth

"Does Good will equal salvation?"

Well, let's look at that question carefully. Let's presume you are talking about truly good will, not self-deceiving rationalization. Could truly good will come from the devil? Is not God the author of all good things?

Next question: Is it possible to have a good will apart from Christ? No.

But is it possible to have a good will without knowing the name of Christ? Well, there's Moses and Abel and the prophets...

OK, could a gentile have a good will without knowing the name of Christ? Well, there's the three wise men, Naomi, Cyrus of Persia, and in the opinion of the Church fathers, even such people as Plato, "the prophet to the Greeks."

OK, could a gentile born after Christ have a good will without knowing the name of Christ? Well, now we have a problem with sola scriptura, since there are no people in the bible who lived after Christ who were not known of by the Christians who wrote the bible. But if we know that Moses was redeemed without knowing the name of Christ, on what basis can we assert that a just person who sought righteousness, but was born in Indonesia in AD 35 could not be redeemed without knowing the name of Christ?

The reason the question is a prickly one is because the natural follow-up question: If people can be redeemed without knowing the name of Christ, why should we teach people about Christ?

Well, for starters:

1. Jesus told us to.

2. Christians, a knowledge of Christ, and most significantly, the grace given through the sacraments, are means of avoiding sin. A person may discern God's will through nature (Romans 1), but such graces as the Church confers are means to discern that will clearer, combat temptation, and resist the confusion and lies of Satan.

3. Jesus is a healer of souls. Does compassion not compel us to heal the sick?

4. The church is the means through which Jesus acts that the souls who go to Hades without knowing Him will be raised up to Heaven. "Apon this Rock I shall build my Church, and the Gates of Hades shall not withstand it." Bringing people to Jesus strengthens the Church.

5. Luther chopped this out of the bible, so Protestants don't like to hear this, but God actually likes us to participate in atonement for sin (2 Maccabees). Such a participation makes us understand better God's love for us. That is why (even in the censored, Protestant bibles) Jesus commands those who would follow him to take up their crosses. If atonement has an effect, is the world not better if there is less to atone for?

6. By spreading the word, reducing the sins that must be atoned for, and bringing an opportunity to respond to God's love to all people, we allow Jesus to act through us to establish the Kingdom of Heaven.


28 posted on 01/16/2006 2:52:20 PM PST by dangus
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