Posted on 01/18/2006 11:50:52 AM PST by johnk
Please point out the "dichotomy" as you see it.
so faith is not the issue with them...in fact they are the "arm" of the Church which tries to dispel damaging evidence.
The office of the Church Presidency is the Official spokesmen of the Church, but they have virtually nothing to say EXCEPT you must have faith.
My understanding is that the Church can not get into contenious debates that the world is always presenting and at the same time expect the Holy Spirit to linger!
In all honesty I love reading about these carnards and than is amazed at how things unfold and are answered, it really broadens and strengthens my understanding!
Wow! To me that is so neat!
Oh yes, I use to drag it, but now I learn it is another to grow and learn and very much a blessing! So I guess I am odd for I welcome it and than doing the research this way my understanding becomes even greater!
Logophile is right on this score. Truth is truth and does not contradict itself--there's no such animal as separate truths for science and religion.
Of course, faulty human understanding of either of those can lead to apparent contradictions and conflicts.
The conflict was not between truth and truth, but faith and proof...different animals. Your faith does not prove anything to me....sorry!
It was between him saying there was scientic proof to discount claims against the Mormon Church and him saying that the important thing is faith.
That old saying
Figures Lie and Liars Figure
has drifted off into News Print/media and afraid in science also!
Science is a funny thing. Many people think its holds all the answers to life; yet its answers are often so ambiguous that they are no help at all. Often times it seems that the scientists with the best PR skills are the one's the media [and the public in turn] end up beleiving.
http://www.neoflux.com/archive/data/2001/0705-103600.shtml
Don't kid yourself humanist have agenda too!
How the Media Deceives You About Health Issues
http://www.mercola.com/2001/feb/17/media_deception.htm
Christianity in no way changes the nature of the One True God. He is unchangeable, as is Jesus Christ. If you are referring to the Incarnation, God took on the form of a man, but His nature was unchanged. The Incarnation was but the Plan of Salvation revealed in the Torah to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God, and God alone, is our Savior. Christianity is the culmination of Jewish theology.
Tell me johnk, is it not true that the Father and Son are ONE?
John 10
30 I and my Father are ONE.
Did not the Son receive the Glory of the Heavenly Father?
John 7
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
They are in ONE accord!
Malachi 2 10
.Have we not all one father?
.hath not one God created us?
.why do we deal treacherously every man against his bother,
.by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
Matt. 5:
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Luke 6:
40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed,and heirs according to the promise.
Do you johnk, know what the promise is?
John 17
1 THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
con't John 17
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
As I read the scripture Jesus ask his Heavenly Father for his Glory that he may also glorify the those of us who do the will of the Father and Son and Keep His Commandments!
So this promise is those who "Keep the Lord's Commandments" will be glorified with the Son as ONE, as the Son is ONE with the Heavenly Father, and be resurrected and have enteranl life and be join heirs!
The scritures in many places uses the word ONE as in ONE accord!
The Father and Son are ONE,
and we are all to ONE with the Lord Jesus Christ!
Those who are ONE will be join heirs and glorified!
Roman 8
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Works for me, thanks!
You've been studying!
You see, when someone like me plays the ol' devils advocate it can arouse emotions that spur you on to more knowledge. See, I'm not all bad. ;-)
Thank you, I need a kick in the butt for I get so distracted with self!:)
Amen. The Old and New Testaments are a single, continuous unfolding of God's plan for His creation.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." -- John 17:4-5."I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Mormonism is as related to Christianity as Islam -- both do not subscribe to the idea of a Trinity: both consider Jesus to not be of the same substance as God. The difference is that the Muslims take a more Arian view while the Mormons seem akin to Gnosticism.
Now we are talking about the Godhood of Jesus. The Bible portrays Jesus as one member of the Trinity. Orthodox Christianity's established concept of God is that Jesus and the Father share the same essence (are one and the same God). A substantial part of the book of Colossians is dedicated to refuting a heresy denying Christ's Deity. A few of the relevant passages are given below in which Jesus is identified with, and acts as, God:
Statements about Jesus' Deity:
"In Him [Jesus] all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col. 2:9).
"It was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him [Jesus]" (Col. 1:19).
"He [Jesus] is the radiance of His [God] glory and the exact representation of His nature" (Heb. 1:3).
"But of the Son He [God] says, ‘Thy Throne O God is
forever and ever’" (Heb. 1:8).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:1,14).
Of Jesus it was announced: "These are the words of Him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again" (Rev. 2:8); the same claim made by God Almighty: "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God" (Is. 44:6). Also, compare Rev. 22:13 with Is. 48:12.
Claims by Jesus about His Deity:
Jesus claimed: ‘I and the Father are one’, meaning in essence not just purpose (from the Greek construction), a statement the Jews clearly understood because they "took up stones again to stone Him" (Jn. 10:30-31).
Jesus also claimed: "Before Abraham was born, I AM" [ego eimi], a restatement of the name God used for himself to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; the Jews also understood its import and tried to stone Jesus. (Jn. 8:58-59; Ex. 3:14). See also Jn. 13:19, 18:5,6,8).
Jesus makes the same claim again: "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).
"Philip said to Him, 'Lord, show us the Father'...Jesus said to him...'He who has seen Me has seen the Father'" (Jn. 14:8-9).
"He who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me" (Jn. 12:45).
Jesus allowed Himself to be worshipped, despite the biblical edict that 'only God may be worshipped' (Acts 10:25-26; Rev. 19:10; 22:9):
"Thomas answered [to Jesus] ‘My Lord and My God’" (John 20:28).
"When I saw Him [Jesus], I fell at His feet" (Rev. 1:17).
"Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him" (Matt. 2:2).
Let's focus on the main doctrinal issues at hand.
Mormon -vs- Biblical Teachings about Jesus
Conception Jesus was conceived by physical union between God the Father and Mary
VS.
Jesus was conceived supernaturally by the Holy Spirit
Marital Status Jesus had several wives
VS.
No indication that Jesus was married
Relationship to Satan Jesus was the brother of Lucifer (Satan)
VS.
Satan is only a fallen, created angel
Origin Jesus was created
VS.
Jesus always was, is now, and forever shall be God; all things were created through Jesus
Deity The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct gods
VS.
There is only one God, but three distinct Persons in the Godhead
His Constancy Jesus is our elder brother who progressed to become a god
VS.
Jesus has existed as God eternally
Role in Our Salvation Jesus Christ plays only an initial role in our salvation
VS.
Salvation is through trust in the finished work of Christ on the cross alone, apart from any work by us
Certain sins are beyond the atoning blood of Christ
VS.
Christ's sacrifice on the cross was complete
Jesus is only one of many saviors
VS.
Jesus is the one and only Savior
Personal Relationship A personal relationship with Christ is discouraged as false doctrine
VS.
A personal relationship with Christ is a central part of Christianity
(click on any reference number to show detailed documentation of each statement in the lower frame)
What is this?
click on any reference number to show detailed documentation of each statement in the lower frame)
I left that part in my cut and paste. :-)
Above statement from...
http://web.archive.org/web/20041022125208/http://wri.leaderu.com/mormonism/jesus.html
When you know these things for yourself you would see how Kerry/Gore tactic this is?
In other words to make what one wants others to believe about the LDS they have to resort to distorting and lying!
That would mean every time the Holy Ghost came upon a female she should fear of conceiving... LOL
BTW it is impossible to begat unless both have a body?
Ghost can not reproduce silly?
****
Marital Status Jesus had several wives
show me the scripture johnk?
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Relationship to Satan Jesus was the brother of Lucifer (Satan)
He was your spirit brother too johnk! LOL
Before Lucifer became evil he was among those who sang for joy (Job 38:7) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
his name literally the Shining One; also Lightbringer or Son of the Morning, a morming star, before his rebellion and was vanished from the kingdom!
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
****
Origin Jesus was created
Jesus Spirit always was, it is the body that is created, the earth body is temportal!
****
Deity The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct gods
Three distinct personage in the Godhead the LDS don't believe in Multiple Personality
The presence of two or more distinct identities or personality states (each with its own relatively enduring pattern of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about the environment and self).
At least two of these identities or personality states recurrently take control of the person's behavior.
The Godhead is two personages have resurrected bodies of Flesh and Bones, The Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost is a Spirit
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His Constancy Jesus is our elder brother who progressed to become a god
Jesus will always greater that man he is the only begotten Son of Heavenly Father, man is submissive to Him and the Heavely Father!
****
Role in Our Salvation Jesus Christ plays only an initial role in our salvation
That is so silly johnk, had not Jesus died for our sins and the will of Heavenly Father none of us would be here talking about it!
****
Certain sins are beyond the atoning blood of Christ
Matt. 12: 31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Luke 12: 10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
****
Jesus is only one of many saviors
Show me the scripture johnk?
There is only ONE SAVIOR!
Yes,--- you referred me to where this doctrine came from.
You told me that Tertullian originated this doctrine.
I looked up his biography, and you are right.
He was a pagan lawyer who started writing revisionist doctrine. He sent it to the Bishop of Rome and promptly had it rejected as Heresy.
He left the church at Antioch in a snit.
Later his revisionist doctrine started to be accepted by some because it was so rhetorical that they could read anything into it.
By the time of the council called and presided over by the Roman Emperor, Constantine, the revisionist doctrine was being debated by other revisionists.
They eventually voted to accept it because nobody could understand it.
That is the way of a lot of revisionist doctrine. First it is rejected, then it is tolerated, then it is embraced.
It doesn't change its character as revisionist doctrine though.
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