Vatican Storylines: Those Who Are Resisting Benedict XVI

Chiesa ^ | January 19, 2006 | Sandro Magister

[trisham]

Second, they are clearly not schismatic. The Pope's statements, if nothing else, cannot help but make that clear, and you have no business contending you can override his statements about them. He determines who is schismatic or not, and where he has ruled you cannot contradict, or you are guilty of the same thing you wish to accuse them of.

So long as the Holy Father continues to work with them and recognize them, they are not schismatic.

"Benedict XVI has ordered that all of this come to an end. He did this through a letter delivered in mid-December to the three main leaders of the Way: Kiko, Carmen, and the Italian priest Mario Pezzi. The letter was signed by cardinal Francis Arinze, prefect of the Vatican congregation for the liturgy, but from its very first lines it clearly states that these are “the decisions of the Holy Father.” Six unambiguous commands follow.

For example, regarding communion, the exact dispositions of the letter are these:

“On the manner of receiving Holy Communion, a period of transition (not exceeding two years) is granted to the Neocatechumenal Way to pass from the widespread manner of receiving Holy Communion in its communities (seated, with a cloth-covered table placed at the center of the church instead of the dedicated altar in the sanctuary) to the normal way in which the entire Church receives Holy Communion. This means that the Neocatechumenal Way must begin to adopt the manner of distributing the Body and Blood of Christ that is provided in the liturgical books.” (2)

But instead of simply obeying, the Neocatechumenals disobeyed while asserting that they were perfectly obedient."

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In my opinion, the situation described above is a schism. While Pope Benedict may be trying to work with them and bring them back into the fold, they are still currently in schism.

schism

One entry found for schism.

Main Entry: schism

Pronunciation: 'si-z&m, 'ski- also 'shi-; among clergy usually 'si-

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English scisme, from Middle French cisme, from Late Latin schismat-, schisma, from Greek, cleft, division, from schizein to split -- more at SHED

1 : DIVISION, SEPARATION; also : DISCORD, DISHARMONY

2 a : formal division in or separation from a church or religious body b : the offense of promoting schism

[Theophane]

Here is the definition of schism in the Code of Canon Law (1983):

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

[patent]

>>>>In my opinion, the situation described above is a schism. While Pope Benedict may be trying to work with them and bring them back into the fold, they are still currently in schism. If that's all it took to be in schism nearly all of us would be in schism at some level. There have been alot of unambiguous commands from the Pope's I've failed to live up to - I'm a proven repeated sinner.

You provided a dictionary definition of schism. That's fine, but which part of it do you think they fail? The first "1 : DIVISION, SEPARATION; also : DISCORD, DISHARMONY" is one we nearly all meet at some point. Its also entirely too vague to actually be applied. The second, "2 a : formal division in or separation from a church or religious body b : the offense of promoting schism" is clearly not met here, as there is no formal seperation. The Pope clearly recognizes them as inside the Church. I don't know why you guys insist on throwing the schism word so recklessly when the Pope clearly disagrees. He defines the issue, not us.

patent

[tiki]

I have truly been concerned about a friend of mine as her antisemitism has grown every day. I sort of excommunicated her from my life for a while but then when her family talked to me and expressed their extreme concern for her I made the promise to love her where she is and that they should too and hope for the best. Her daughter is helping her to moderate a little, teensy bit and the last time I was with her she managed to avoid talking religion with me.

Her niece, OTH, has gone even further saying that her aunt, basically isn't holy enough. The niece moved to Phoenix and is completely immersing herself in the SSPX.

[Antoninus]

Should it not be "Benedicat," Antoninus?

You are 100% right. My fingers are as disobedient as an American bishop!

[Desdemona]

Strictly speaking, ummm, I can program the music, but a proper Gregorian Chant choir is actually a schola and we ladies would not be included.

[bornacatholic]

Pope Torquemada would tend to signal a change in the way the Papacy would be exercised :)

First Day...

I'd fillet Fellay

I'd give a faithful Irish Catholic from Southie five minutes to use a shillelagh on Schillebeeckx and see if Schille is silly or serious once the heat is on.

I'd let a cranky Catholic campesino tie a plow to the sorry ass of "Liberation Theology" toss-pot, Fr. Gustavo Gutiérrez,and make him turn-over 15 acres while Ol' G.G. sings "L'Internationale" in pig Latin and all the Catholic kids get to pelt him with rotten tomatoes (provided, for free, by Hugo Chavez)

I'd send Fr. Robert Nugent to a Dude Ranch on Brokeback Mountain telling him Popes don't let their cowboys grow-up to be boyfriends and that unless he repents, and I mean Pronto, Tonto, he's just another goat playing grab-ass with Satan .

VOTF would be given the Phone number to the local Episcopalian Church and told to bugger-off

Then, I 'd break for 6:00 am Mass

[bornacatholic]

Southern by choice.

Were I Pope, I'd contract with NASCAR to soup-up the Popemobile and Lynyrd Skynyrd and the Allman Brothers would be in my CD collection and I'd make it a point to praise Brother Sam Phillips of Sun Records for his slapback delay innovation and any attempt to end the Muscle Shoals Sound would be roundly and soundly denounced and condemned. As the Pope, I'd love Gregorian Chant,Mozart, and Vivaldi, but, a guy's gotta kick-back for some cold brews, a few glasses of good red wine and some different music every now and then :)

[bornacatholic]

http://sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/jews_guilty_of_deicide.htm

[Frank Sheed]

I hate to be pedantic but I vividly recall that line as the priest turned and blessed us before instructing us to "Ite Missa Est!"

I don't see the Latin Mass much nowadays. I sure pray that this Holy Father makes the Tridentine a separate Rite or Prelature within the Church.

F

[bornacatholic]

Oh, I am sorry to hear that. THe SSPX Schism is the home for many formerly-Catholic antisemites. It is the sspx doctrine the Jews are cursed. I call that Calvinism in Fiddlebacks.

Other than prayer,not much can be done to penetrate the hateful ideology. The Holy Spirit must change their hearts and that requires their cooperation with Grace.

[trisham]

I'd always heard it was "Southern by the grace of God". :)

[patent]

>>>>http://sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/jews_guilty_of_deicide.htm

I see the link is to the SSPX, and that made me realize my post wasn't clear. I was referring to the Neocatechumal Way, not the SSPX. I had understood you to refer to both as schismatic/heretical. I would agree that the official SSPX is schismatic, and some are heretical. I disagree about the NW, as I've yet to see proof they are either schismatic or heretical.

patent

[Convert from ECUSA]

ROFL! I love it!

[bornacatholic]

1 Timothy Them that sin reprove before all: that the rest also may have fear.

* The Pope is using the language of romance and being quite gentle with them. Fine. He is Pope.

I ain't. I am calling a schismatic spade a schismatic spade. I see no virtue in pretending what clearly is isn't. The Pope said "do this." They said "nope."

Romans 16: 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. 18 For they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent.

*IMO, we laymen in America have been feminized and far too many are fearful of calling a spade a spade.

[trisham]

If that's all it took to be in schism nearly all of us would be in schism at some level. There have been alot of unambiguous commands from the Pope's I've failed to live up to - I'm a proven repeated sinner.

I see what you mean. Perhaps this will be of use:

From a search of The Holy See:

"Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271"

www.vatican

You provided a dictionary definition of schism. That's fine, but which part of it do you think they fail? The first "1 : DIVISION, SEPARATION; also : DISCORD, DISHARMONY" is one we nearly all meet at some point. Its also entirely too vague to actually be applied. The second, "2 a : formal division in or separation from a church or religious body b : the offense of promoting schism" is clearly not met here, as there is no formal seperation. The Pope clearly recognizes them as inside the Church. I don't know why you guys insist on throwing the schism word so recklessly when the Pope clearly disagrees. He defines the issue, not us.

Yes, I agree that this is defined by the Pope. I should have consulted a more appropriate source.

From The Holy See:

"2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11"

www.vatican

There is a difference between the sins of an individual, and the persistent defiance of a group which has officially separated itself from the Church.

[bornacatholic]

http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=44140&eng=y

[trisham]

But with Benedict XVI, playtime is over.

And it’s coming to an end for the liturgical abuses practiced throughout the Church. In this regard, pope Joseph Ratzinger’s document in conclusion of the synod of the Eucharist will be of great interest.

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Glory be. This is one amazing Pope.

[Diva]

Watch this space for further announcements!

Hey I wanna be in charge of somthin! How about the Congregation of Pseudo-Catholic Movements?

[Diva]

but a proper Gregorian Chant choir is actually a schola and we ladies would not be included.

Actual statement of a progressive female theology student upon being asked her thoughts on Benedict XVI's election: "Now women will just be candlesticks on the altar!" To avoid being a candlestick this is what I do sometimes when our schola sings. I drop into my best tenor range and sing with them. Ninenot - Cal used to let me rehearse with the guys on Wednesdays, as long as I could sing in their octave he didn't care. It's only when Father is in the choir loft that I have to be careful. ; )