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To: Buggman
An amusing charge, made without evidence, and coming from a man who thinks the Mithraist Constantine a great Christian saint.

I think Constantine a great Christian saint? You've got me confused with somebody else. No evidence? I beg to differ. The whole concept gods becoming human is pretty much all the evidence I need.

The numbers are irrelevant (and more like 60-40 to 75-25%)

Very generous number.

, for God made Jew and Gentile into one Body in the Messiah.

No, the vast majority of Jews won't join you in the body of trinitariansim. But no prob, we're all God's children.

And who else should I credit Trinitarianism to?

Surely not those you've listed below. They'd never heard the word "trinity". That's a concept you adopted from proto-orthodox and orthodoxy. You also accept their canonization but then reject most other things these same people attempt to give you. Such as the perpetual virginity of Mary, papal authority, apostolic succession. Your approach is rather smorgessboardlike.

Yeshua was Jewish. So were Kefa (Peter), Yochanan (John), Ya'akov (James--both of them), Y'hudah (Jude), Sha'ul (Paul), etc. All of those who penned the Bible, with the possible exceptions of Job and Luke, were Jewish.

Just go ahead and call them by their trinitarian given names. Orthodoxy says its ok.

I think ya'll are sincere in and don't necessarily know any better with your Messianic Judaism approach but hopefully someday you'll realize how insulting it is for Jews.

241 posted on 02/07/2006 8:02:43 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
I think Constantine a great Christian saint?

Let me put that in the form of a question, then: Was Constantine, called "the Great" in the Catholic Encyclopedia, a Christian, a saint, and in good standing with the Church despite his refusal to be baptized for 25 years?

No evidence?

I made an assumption based on your Catholicism. If I was in error, I apologize. Speaking of evidence, however, let's not forget what led up to that point: You claimed that I "pervert [my] Torah with [my] psuedo Mithraism." Care to show some, or do you withdraw the charge and confess to slander?

Very generous number.

It depends on the congregation, but that's what I've found in those I know, your snide words aside. Some have fewer, some have more.

Surely not those you've listed below. They'd never heard the word "trinity".

"Trinity" is simply a convenient shorthand expression for the belief that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all equally One God, often expressed as "Three Persons"--and while the Apostles and Prophets did not originate the term, they clearly understood the concept and expressed it throughout their writings.

That's a concept you adopted from proto-orthodox and orthodoxy.

It's a concept that I tested by the Scriptures and have found to be true, if often poorly expressed by many of those who profess to believe in it.

You also accept their canonization but then reject most other things these same people attempt to give you.

The RCC and EO churches did not "give" me the canon, as if they wrote them. They merely recognized the canon that the Holy Spirit gave. Thus, the Church (by which I mean the true Church, not the RCC) is not the originator of the canon, it is merely the recognizer of it. The Church is not the mother of the canon, but its daughter. The Church is not the master of the canon, but it's minister.

Such as the perpetual virginity of Mary,

Which is disproven by the Scriptures on multiple fronts:

1) Yeshua had brothers (adelphos, not anepsios, "cousin") and sisters.

2) Matthew records that "And Joseph, being roused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took his wife, and did not know her until she bore her son, the First-born. And he called His name Yeshua ("Yah's Salvation")" (1:24-25).

3) The essence of marriage in Hebrew, Biblical thought is that "a man shall leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and the two of them shall be one flesh" (Mat. 19:5, cit. Gen. 2:24). A marriage in which there was no sexual intercourse would have been a sham marriage, and a matter of both spouses defrauding the other. Thus Sha'ul (Paul) writes:

Do not deprive one another, unless it is with consent for a time, so that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer. And come together again so that Satan does not tempt you for your incontinence.
(1 Cor. 7:5)
The fact is that the entire "perpetual virgin" myth is a perfect example of imposing a Platonic Greek ideal on a distinctly Jewish document, the sacred Scriptures.

papal authority,

The day the popes declared to be above the Scriptures is the day they lost their authority in all things Scriptural.

apostolic succession.

When the bishops, cardinals, and popes live as the Apostles did, teach what the Apostles taught, and do the deeds of the Apostles, then maybe I'll listen to the claim of apostolic succession. Until then, I reiterate that to God, obedience is far more important than lineage (Mat. 12:48-49, Luke 11:27-28).

Your approach is rather smorgessboardlike.

Only in the sense that I look at the buffet of competing traditions, and compare them all with Scripture: Those that match, I heed; those that do not, I throw out.

Just like Yeshua did.

292 posted on 02/07/2006 2:45:24 PM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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