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I'm just asking when did your church come along. When was it formed, by whom?

It was formed 1974 years ago by Yeshua HaMashiach, if you want to play that game. As I said, the sect of the Nazarines (Messianic Jews) is documented to have survived as a cohesive group for at least a thousand years after the Messiah came. I can't prove a continuation of leadership beyond that point, but I can prove a continuation of Spirit.

How? Very simple: Compare our teachings and practices to what is in the Bible, which predates Catholic tradition by between a century (the earliest ECF writings coming from the Second Century) and 1600 years (to the Exodus and the writing of the Torah).

For its modern history: For the last 50 or so years, and increasing number of Christians have been spontaneously and without a single human leader been discovering the Jewish roots of their faith. At the same time, and increasing number of Jews have been discovering that Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus the Christ, really didn't teach against the Torah or tell them to stop being Jewish.

There was no central organization, no one leader. In 1989, a guy named David H. Stern put out the Messianic Jewish Manifesto, a commentary on the NT, and his own translation of the Bible. However, while this provided some direction in Messianic congregations, it would be inaccurate to call him the leader of the movement, as there were many others who have also published books on everything from a Messianic theology and Messianic commentaries to practical guides on keeping the Feastdays and other Torah-based Jewish customs.

You are used to thinking of the Church as a heirarchy, with a central authority handing down decrees from on high. The modern Messianic movement is a grass-roots effort, the result of the Spirit moving in many places at once. Mind you, the lack of central organization has its own problems (including a number of "Messianic" congregations that are quite fruity and even heretical; not that the RCC doesn't suffer from its own fruity parishes), but it has its advantages as well--most particularly that there is earnest discussion on the Scriptures, the one authority that we all agree on.

I'm not going to waste any more time on Messianic history with you. It's candidly irrelevant. Only whether our beliefs and practices come from the Scriptures matters. If you wish to challenge me on that basis, all well and good, but don't pull the tired argument that "the RCC's been here (visibly) the longest, so we must be right." To quote Tertullian, "Custom (i.e., tradition) without truth is error grown old."

I'm not going to waste any more time on Messianic history with you. It's candidly irrelevant.

But it is. It's at the core. Your church froze Christianity in it's first century. Mine didn't. If we freeze it then, we end up with your church; if not, mine.

Now, which was God's intent? Who can say for sure, but let's examine the intent and results as best we can:

As for intent, Jesus commanded: go and preach the Good News, the gospel. I believe you would include judaic practices and Torah observance as part of this commandment, I wouldn't. While His message was to His people in His time, we might agree that it was also for all people of all time and that it stands true inside or outside of Jewish tradition.

We might also disagree on whether God intends this message for all people with or without Jewish tradition, customs, observance, Torah, Mishna, etc.

Then, let's look at results. Had Christianity stayed Judaic, we would likely have what you have in your church: a small subsect of observant jews and jewish-flavored gentiles, studying Hebrew and Torah and observing first century jewish practices - who believe Jesus to be the messiah.

Instead, we had the rapid growth of Christianity outside judaism, with the Good News of Jesus as the evangelical message. It's key I believe that this rapid spread of the Gospel occurred after the time of your freeze of history.

This can also comment on God's intent. We may agree that it's likely God wishes His message and incarnation to spread and be known by all. And this is what happened in history. The history of the Christian Church. It didn't happen in the history of what you wish the Christian Church to be.

So, Messianic history is key. My church believes it is Jesus Christ's Church, the living body of Christ, comprised of saints living and passed, and saints yet to come, not frozen in time, but of each time in Jesus Christ eternal.

This church does interpret scriptures, does change. The challenge is to change while remaining in the body of Christ. We believe this is why Christ created His church, and that He created it such that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

We believe the Church like Christ is alive, not frozen in time.

And this is the primary difference we have.

You may have left the thread, if so, thank you and best wishes...