Posted on 02/07/2006 5:02:07 AM PST by HarleyD
Poor choice of words on my part. I should have said the "veneration" of Mary. As much as the Catholic Church likes to try to distinguish this from the veneration of God, there really is no distinction. It shows up in believing Mary to be co-redeemer.
Point well taken. That’s why I’m a Catholic and no longer a Southern Baptist
There isn't much difference between the two. A little doctrine tweaking here and there. Both are synergistic systems.
Oh, please.
You really shouldn’t criticize things you don’t understand. The Catholic Church worships God and venerates Mary. Are you familiar with Luke 1:48?
It shows up in believing Mary to be co-redeemer.
Again, you really shouldn’t criticize things you don’t understand. The term I believe you are referring to is Co-redemptrix . This is a Latin term not English, and is frequently mistranslated by those who are ignorant of Latin. Co-redemptrix properly translated is the woman with the redeemer. It does not mean equal to the redeemer.
There isn't much difference between the two. A little doctrine tweaking here and there. Both are synergistic systems.
Trust me, there is more than a little difference.
You’re dodging my questions. So who teaches the truth ? More importantly, where does the Bible tells us we can find the truth?
This error of the “will” is a profound error that permeates all of Christendom and from which all lies spring IMO. The co-redemptrix of Mary is one of them. You can put lipstick on a pig but it’s still a pig. And trust me-if your Southern Baptist church was Arminian based (most are) there is little difference. The root problem is still the same-synergism. This may come as a shock but I think many Protestants would agree with the Catholic description of events of Mary except they would shy away at the veneration part.
I’m learning that most do not understand the distinct difference between monergism and synergism. They'll say they believe that God's grace saves them and then turn right around and say God foresees what WE are going to do. God sends a redeemer into the world but only because God foresaw what Mary would do?!? Well if Mary wasn't created yet how did He "foresee" what she would do? More importantly what would have happen if Mary wanted to just say "No!" to God. What utter nonsense and rubbish.
In truth the scriptures state the angel of the Lord came to Mary and said, "Mary, this is what's going to happen to you..." He didn't ask Mary's permission. He made a statement. The blessed Mary said, "OK". What else could she say?
People have this weird idea that God comes to us and say, "Would it be OK if I did such-n-such?" and we make some kind of decision. He is our Santa Claus who sits in heaven wanting to shower His children with all sorts of good gifts and patch our boo-boos when we stumble.
Well, God is not like that at all. He is the majestic God who runs the universe and controls our destinies. He cares for His flock but He will not tolerate His name being abused. He doesn't come up and asks us OUR opinion. He knows everything and knows precisely what is best and will do just as He pleases to carry out what is best. Whether we agree with it or not we had better get in line with His will or we'll be sitting in a fish's belly until we do.
/sermon off
God.
Does he REALLY wear a cake on his head :)
If so, maybe our Orthodox Hierarchs should go with the fashion :)
Actually, I don't think the last 3 Popes have worn the Triple-Crown. John Paul II refused it purposely, from what I understand.
Take out the "College of Bishops" and the Pope, and I agree with you! :) (Being Orthodox Christian)
The Bible does not contradict itself. This passage in Matthew does not invalidate Mary being singled out for God's favor as we read in Luke’s Gospel.
In other words God is really subject to His creatures.
Did you read what you cut and pasted?
“This does not mean that God in His plans was bound by the will of a creature, and that man would not have been redeemed, if Mary had not consented.”
This error of the “will” is a profound error that permeates all of Christendom and from which all lies spring IMO.
This error of not having the proper understanding of the free will of man is a profound error that permeates throughout Calvinists and from which all lies spring IMO.
In truth the scriptures state the angel of the Lord came to Mary and said, "Mary, this is what's going to happen to you..." He didn't ask Mary's permission. He made a statement. The blessed Mary said, "OK". What else could she say?
She could have said no however she said “May it be done to me according to your word." It’s called cooperating with God’s grace.
People have this weird idea that God comes to us and say, "Would it be OK if I did such-n-such?" and we make some kind of decision.
The idea is that God gives every man the opportunity to accept or reject his saving Grace.
He is the majestic God who runs the universe and controls our destinies.
Yes we can agree God is in control. Where we disagree is the extent to which he requires our cooperation. I will agree he does not need our cooperation however he makes the rules so who am I to argue?
God.
You dodged the question again. God speaks to his people thru messengers. In the case of teaching the Truth, it is thru the Church that Christ established.
BTW. Pretty impressive posting at 6 in the morning ;-)
worship (definition from the Greek text)- among the Orientals, especially the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence, in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
You’re correct. I should have asked you how many people were ever greeted with the salutation “Hail, full of Grace.” The answer is only the Blessed Virgin Mary. This is clearly the Angel Gabriel recognizing her exalted status. And also, how many people does scripture say “All generations shall call me blessed”. I think you know the answer to that.
worship (definition from the Greek text)-
Are you back to insinuating Catholics worship Mary? I told you Catholics worship God and venerate Mary. You seem to think worship and veneration are one in the same when in fact they are not. It’s not that difficult to comprehend.
venerate \VEN-uh-rayt\, transitive verb: To treat someone or something with deep respect, reverence or deference; to revere.
I'm not impress with this logic and never have been.
Well if you’re not impressed it must be faulty theology.
Can you give me the supporting arguments for Calvinism?
Sure. There are no supporting arguments for Calvinism
I find most people who reject Calvinism really don't understand the soteriology.
I find most people who reject Catholicism really don't understand the soteriology.
How could she have said no when God knew what she was going to say and built His entire plan around her (and Abraham).
St. Francis de Sales can explain it better than I can, “God knows infallibly in advance what use the individual will make of the grace bestowed on them. He elects for eternal bliss those who by virtue of their foreseen merits perseveringly cooperate with grace.”
BTW-I'm still wondering how God would have know any of this if He wrote people's names in the book of Life before anyone was created.
It’s a mystery.
I dodged nothing. You just don't like the answer. God devoted a whole lengthy Psalms 119 to His word. Last I look there isn't a Psalms dedicated to tradition.
That’s right. You have the infallible interpretation of God’ word because he’s personally instructing you. The Church that Christ established has no part in teaching the faithful. Got it.
from harley-worship (definition from the Greek text)-... an expression of profound reverence, in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
Care to explain the difference? I would appreciate the clarification since I see no difference.
The Blessed Virgin Mary is the only person in the Bible that was greeted by an Angel with the salutation “Hail, full of Grace.” And also the only person of whom it was said “All generations shall call me blessed”.
There are others but not as overt. Do we have an immaculant conception for Stephen?
Since I don’t know what immaculant means I don’t know. However Catholics do celebrate the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Care to explain the difference? I would appreciate the clarification since I see no difference.
Sure. The terms Catholics make for this distinction are called Latria, Hyperdulia and Dulia. I’ll use a secular source from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for the explanation
Latria is a Greek term used in Catholic theology to mean adoration, which is the highest form of worship or reverence and is directed only to God. It is sacrificial in character, and may be offered only to God. Roman Catholics offer other degrees of reverence to the Blessed Virgin Mary and to the Saints; these non-sacrificial types of reverence are called Hyperdulia and Dulia, respectively. This distinction, written about as early as Augustine of Hippo and St Jerome, was detailed more explicitly by Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae, A.D. 1270.
Reverence is due to God on account of His excellence, which is communicated to certain creatures not in equal measure, but according to a measure of proportion; and so the reverence which we pay to God, and which belongs to latria, differs from the reverence which we pay to certain excellent creatures; this belongs to dulia, and we shall speak of it further on (II II 103 3)"; in this next article St. Thomas writes: "Wherefore dulia, which pays due service to a human lord, is a distinct virtue from latria, which pays due service to the lordship of God. It is, moreover, a species of observance, because by observance we honor all those who excel in dignity, while dulia properly speaking is the reverence of servants for their master, dulia being the Greek for servitude." From St. Thomas it is apparent that a clear distinction exists among latria and forms of dulia within Catholic theology.
Protestants and others fault Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox Christians for revering Mary or the saints, declaring their distinction among latria, hyperdulia, and dulia to be hair-splitting, and furthermore reject Augustine, Jerome, Aquinas and others as authorities.
I thought you liked Augustine?
Oh, please.
I'm sorry for asking you to make up your mind. Either the Trinity is a simple thing to understand or God has revealed Himself to us as a mystery which we can contemplate, yet never fully humanly grasp.
Which is it?
"I see white, the Church says it's black. It must be black."
Now that's a mystery
If you see white things as black, perhaps there is a problem with your vision. Don't project your difficulties upon others.
SD
Still having difficulty with the concept of "eternity"?
SD
There absolutely was such a univeral tradition, and in particular one which you I'm sure would most strenously call a particular innovation of the Roman Church--the dogma that the bread and wine literally are changed into the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
No Church Father taught anything against this idea. Not one. And if that were not enough, the case is further proved by the historical fact that the Churches which separated from the Roman communion (whether the Eastern Orthodox around the 11th century, or the "monophysite" Churches which left around the 4th-5th centuries) all believe in the Real Presence. The ancient faith has been held in common inheritance among all of these Churches from the early days to the present. And it goes right back to the Apostolic Age and can be seen not only in the Didache, but also in the letter of Ignatius of Antioch.
You will never, never find any Church Father, for instance, who said anything like the Black Rubric of the Book of Common Prayer of 1552:
For as concernynge the Sacramentall bread and wyne, they remayne styll in theyr verye naturall substaunces, and therefore may not be adored, for that were Idolatrye to be abhorred of all faythfull christians.This perhaps was not a new teaching in Christianity, but we do find that all those who taught it in the earliest centuries were most vociferously condemned for doing so.
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